I, Sam Young, have been excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Following is the official notification.
HOUSTON TEXAS SOUTH STAKE
September 12, 2018
Brother Young,
This letter is to inform you of the decision of the disciplinary council that was held in your behalf on 09 September 2018 at the Houston Texas South Stake Center.
We have carefully and prayerfully reviewed this matter in order to reach a decision on what action to take. It is the decision of the council that you be excommunicated for conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church. This means that you are no longer a member of the Church and do not enjoy any privileges of Church membership. You may not hold a temple recommend, wear temple garments, pay tithes and offerings, or exercise the priesthood in any way. We welcome you to attend public Church meetings, if your conduct is orderly, but you may not serve in a Church position, speak or offer a public prayer in Church meetings, partake of the sacrament or participate in the sustaining of Church officers.
This action was not taken because of your opinion or position on protecting children. The Church has a strong desire to protect children and, as you know, issued updated guidelines for interviewing youth earlier this year. Teaching standards of morality to youth and helping them follow those standards–including in interviews with priesthood leaders–is an important responsibility of parents and of the Church. The issue is not that you have concerns–or even that you disagree with the Church’s guidelines, rather it is your persistent, aggressive effort to persuade others to your point of view by repeatedly and deliberately attacking and publicly opposing the Church and its leaders. You are entitled to your opinion or position, but you cannot remain a member in good standing while attacking the Church and its leaders and trying to get others to follow you.
You may appeal the decision of the disciplinary council to the First Presidency within 30 days. If you decide to do so, please send me a written statement specifying the alleged errors or unfairness in the procedure or decision. I will then forward your statement to the First Presidency.
Excommunication almost always lasts at least one year. In order to be readmitted to membership in the Church, you will need to demonstrate that you have stopped actions that undermine the Church and its leaders.
Please understand that this decision is an invitation for you to repent and return. The Savior loves you. We love you and your family. We invite you to return to God’s covenant path and enjoy the fullness of the blessings he has in store for you and your family. With your consent, your Bishop and Stake President will continue to assist you in that process.
With Love,
xxxxx x. xxxxxx
Stake President, Houston Texas South Stake
Tocubit Is Invisible's Cubit 
It’s not you who is undermining the church, the church leaders are.
It seems that church leaders are simply dictators. Perhaps the only way the Mormon Church will make sufficient changes will be when those outside of the church compel them.
I wonder what this church would be like in a society that isn’t free.
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Consider the brutality, force and broad power of Brigham Young in early Utah history as he tried to create a full-blown theocracy within the US; that may provide some clues.
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Indeed.
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Hasn’t that always been the way? Haven’t they always had to ‘change’ or receive revelation from what they call divine source when in actuality it was that the laws of the land prohibit the church’s actions so therefore strongholds were essentially placed? Seems like some kind of something that could also apply to all denominations either regarding crimes against children or women in any ecclesiastical form could have certain prison terms etc but also that affiliated church, ward etc would also be fined or something as a deterrent. Something needs to be done!
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I agree with you that something needs to be done, and I think needed changes inside of the Mormon Church will happen because of the influence from those outside of the Mormon Church.
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I always knew that the mormon church leaders required blind obedience and this letter just proves it. Any real discussion about anything is something the mormon church just can’t handle. Thanks mormon church for exposing your priorities. “with love” Tina
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HaroldTheCat, read Moroni and the Swastika, by David Conley Nelson….
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You might be interested in this: The author talks about it here.
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Don’t have to wonder about that. Just learn about Utah in the 1800’s before it was part of the US. When a person there could go their entire life not interacting with a single business not owned by the Utah church.
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No tithing and no garments in Texas? Sounds like a win to me. Thank you for all you are doing for all of us, not just the children…you are a great man.
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When you defend the children in the mormon church, this is what happens. When we defended our son at age 11, we were kindly asked not to come to church anymore. When I confronted the local bishop with the words from the High Council representative he just hung up the phone on me. I removed my name in 2010. You rock, you are free now and children will be forever greateful to you, Sam. Sending lots of love from Belgium.
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This court and its decision are a great abomination to our Lord and Savior. As LDS we dont have crosses in our buildings, this I like to think was done so we remember how Christ lived and the example he set, which my dear brother Sam has followed. I also believe the death of Christ and His atoning sacrifice are also important and equally as great & call upon leaders to repent, especially the ones who excommunicated Sam. I call upon the public to know that bishops are endangering children, and ask everyone to protest individual bishops, those past and present who need to be called to repentance for their horrible actions in regards to children. I love you Sam Young and thank you for reminding us all of how the Lord lived. You are a blessing!
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You aren’t embarrassed to be associated with what is now recognized as the mormon religious community? Doesnt stand for much that is good anymore. Recognized primarily for being retrograde and repressive
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I am very grateful for the sacrifices that Sam and his wife and family have made, as my grandchildren may be a bit safer now. It is a bit ironic that you used the “cross” as an analogy; David O. McKay, as prophet, was the one who gently had all remnants of “crosses” removed from LDS church buildings. Prior to that, it was a local issue, not always right or good, because that meant some local influential person got the pick of a painting or an architectural aspect of a building that may have included a cross. But, for me, the irony is that in Mormon doctrine, the prophet and the upper echelon leaders always win, even if they are the nicest people around, it is still a dictatorship masking as theocracy. The local leaders in Sam’s case here were forced to excommunicate. We know that. It’s part of being Mormon: follow the Prophet. He knows the way. That’s a big part of why I left.
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My thoughts: Good men, operating from the ‘love of Christ,’ or simply ‘love’ being their motivating passion, may need change, will need to apologize when they make a mistake, but never need ‘the repentance process.’ That mess of a monster created by the Mormon church to intimidate and threaten people. No, those driven by love are forgiven instantly by any Christ who is love, as He declares Himself to be. A reading of the New Testament reveals His instant forgiveness in the prodigal son, the lost sheep, the woman caught in adultery etc etc. Shame results from the repentance process, while guilt may be a motivating feeling when you’ve made a mistake, guilt leaves the minute you correct it, shame stays, and destroys a person. The repentance process wouldn’t work on the leaders who are driven from within by the love of power, they have no guilt, they feel no shame, but they know what it is and how to use it to exploit people. Changing a person, who is driven by power as their motivating life force, is rare.
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Dear FC,
I could not agree more with your assessment of the core values of The Brethren.
I like to describe The Brethren as Parasites who feed on the Host membership whom they literally see as their FOOD. The meat and bread on their tables (and nice roof over their heads) are provided by members going to work, earning a living, and then robotically sending 10% to the Professional Parasites to whom members have relinquished control of their minds and very perception of reality … even.
Sex-shaming is a tried and true staple of Mind Control Masters … like The Brethren. No way in hell will they ever give up that level of control over vulnerable children, youth and adults who are trapped for life in service of … and obedience to …. Jesus?
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Exactly. You nailed it!
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Thank you Sam Young! You have raised awareness for all children, and taught me at the age of 35 that I was being groomed as an Mormon boy to talk about sexually explicit material with willing or unwilling older men. Talking to older men behind closed doors about modesty, chastity, and sexually explicit subjects is WRONG! Thank you for teaching me that, even at my old age.
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That last paragraph was pure Winston Smith 1984 stuff. “We love you Winston. We are doing this to save you Winston. Stop refusing our love Winston”
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Don’t tell us what and how to protect Children. Shame on you for bringing to our attention and especially to the general public, how little we as the First Presidency have done to protect the children of our membership from mental, sexual and physical abuse. Goodness be damned!
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Only Jesus can save you, Sam. Ask Him what the next step is:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/what-lack-i-yet?lang=eng
I guarantee he’ll give you better advice than your friends Mike Norton and John Dehlin.
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This rhetoric should be shared with church leaders, not Sam Young!
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That “talk” is so full of crap I don’t even know where to begin! Please, Viriatu, where have you been the past year? Have you seen the road Sam Young has traveled to get to where he is today? Do you doubt that he has prayed, poundered and asked his God what he should do? Do you not think he has fasted and prayed? Do you not think he has sought counsel from his church leaders?
Oh, and Christ is giving Sam better advice than his church leaders are doing, yes, even Nelson himself.
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Great point!
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That ‘Great point’ was intended for Erin Crawford
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Gods not real. Mike and John are. Enjoying living in your fantasy world of sky dad.
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Maybe this is what Jesus told him to do, since the church leaders aren’t listening anymore. The church leaders of Jesus time said he was a problem undermining their authority too.
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Did mormon leaders ever listened? Of course not, they would excommunicate Jesus Christ himself!
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The Mormon “Jesus” is ineffective, just as the Pharisees in Jesus’ day, and in like manner, the current LDS leadership make their own pride and position into an abusive power to condemn and walk all over others. They put position over principle, pride over love and compassion, and fear over love to the abused and harmed. Please take your blinders off.
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That’s a ridiculous statement. Even your adaptation of the jesus myth is a system that has historically always led to misery when left unfettered. Every time. From Augustine on down the line the dark ages was caused by faith turned to force.
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Your a sick person
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Some people consider your mormon leaders pharisees. They do have 32 billion of tithing money in the stock market and give less than Walmart (who is not really known as a big charitable organization) to people and organizations (like children’s hospitals). They also own a mall and tons of real estate. Your organization’s story parallels the story where Christ required of the rich man who wanted to go to heaven. Ask your church to do the same. Christ was a rebel and so is Sam.
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Tina Ann, just want to correct your opinion that the LDS Church gives less charitable funds than Walmart. Having served missions in Russia and an African country, we saw first hand exactly what our church gives and donates — millions and millions of dollars, goods, time, education, the list goes on and on. Yes,the church owns an abundance of real estate, etc. but it is truly unselfish with the wealth it has. I am grateful for the knowledge I have that the LDS Church puts their money where their mouth is. Our church works hand in hand with Catholic Charities to administer aid throughout the world.
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Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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Unless you know Mike Norton, and John Dehlin, and the passion that drives them, you cannot rightfully judge them as being a bad influence for Sam. These two men are driven by love. I consider it an honor to know them.
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With all due respect, i assume you mean well, It’s laughable that anyone would tell Sam Young to get to know Christ, the man he said, and I quote, ‘I’m not Jesus, I’m just trying to be like Him.’ and he is achieving that more than any man I’ve known. Don’t worry, Sam knows Christ.
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Why can you not participate or take the sacrament or pay tithing- yet investigators are encouraged to do those things? Seems odd.
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And….nothing. Hope you are ok. Really doesn’t mean much in the big picture. They don’t control your spirituality. You do, and when your out you gain a whole new perspective and your eyes will be opened. Good luck. Thanks for all you’ve done.
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I am hoping you are doing ok. The love of the master is with you. I pray the children will not suffer harm. This is a great work you are doing.
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I thought it was interesting how they said it was the decision of the council. It wasn’t. The stake president is not brave enough to disclose what really happened. He received instructions on when to disclose the verdict and what the verdict was.
He tries to rationalize this by saying he would have come to the same conclusions, so in that way he can sleep at night. But the fact is, the decision was not made by the council, or the stake president. He was given explicit instructions on how to handle this case, “because of the publicity and sensitive nature,” of these proceedings.
Your stake president and the LDS church has violated its own policies in handling your excommunication. What’s really sad is that these men walk around and pretend they have some special powers of priesthood, and they think they’re really quite special. But they have nothing. Their priesthood is only pretend. It’s like they’re members of a kids club and they’ve made up they’re own special rules about who can be in it and who can’t. They’ve made up they’re own special powers, and these grown men think these things are real.
The tragedy is that they use their positions of power for bad rather than for good. Instead of acting out of mercy and love, they do the opposite. But what makes their actions so despicable, is that they use language, like that from 1984, saying they’re acting out of love for you. But their actions are mean and hurtful. What sad, sad and pathetic people they are.
Sam, you are free now. God bless you! Your cause will continue and if anything, it will have only gained momentum now that these proceedings have concluded. God bless you Sam!
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You have evidence of this?
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I cannot say that anyone would have evidence of this. I can, though, speak for myself and my own excommunication. My Stake President admitted that at least one person higher in authority (Area Seventy, a member of the Church’s 6th Quorum of Seventy) encouraged the decision to excommunicate.
That means I can suggest that if it happened to me, it is in the realm of possibility it could have happened to Sam, a more “visible” activist than I.
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Of course, there is no evidence. That is not how leaders in the TSCC work. They don’t dirty their hands by getting directly involved. Instead, they make comments to others further down the chain of command – something along the lines of “someone should have a talk with Sam”. The GA gives this “advice” to an Area Authority, and they, in turn, have a casual conversation with the SP. It’s all about the lawyers (oops, I mean the prophets) being able to justify their statement that “decisions regarding church discipline is a local leadership affair”.
This is disgusting. If they think Sam shouldn’t be a member, then they should have the decency to do it themselves and not hide behind local, unpaid leaders, who do all the work – while they sit back in their comfortable offices collecting member’s tithing as salaries.
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I, myself, was just excommunicated on Friday, Sept. 14, 2018. Originally, I was brought in on charges of engaging in premarital sex with my fiancé, yet by the end of the meeting, I was told that I was being excommunicated on the grounds of Apostasy (bc the very last question they asked me was whether or not I believed in the prophet, the 12 Apostles, all the way down to my local leaders. I replied that I did not. I had not been vocal in my questions about the church, it’s history or it’s doctrines at all, until I was asked this simple question and only then did I simply answer, “no”). I feel they were on a witch hunt (my story is too long to tell here, but there will be a book coming soon), and the Mormon church seems to be ousting it’s own left and right lately.
But this “little apostate” (as my Bishop referred to me, my 2 oldest daughters and the members in the hallway as my witnesses), has been liberated.
Deuces.
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“little apostate” how belittling! Anything to make themselves seem more important. Congratulations on your freedom!
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If this is how a member who had given their whole life to the church is treated, then I know exactly how important I am to the hierarchy as a new convert. I am nothing. My voice does not count. I’ve never been a part of such an oppressive structure it’s scary and it makes me fearful. I joined because of Christ. When I found out about Sam and his cause I saw Christ and it gave me hope. This whole affair is inside out. Victims are not loved in this church, sam is not loved, I am not loved. It appears to be all about blind conformity and not about Christ at all. I’m very saddened and dissolutioned by what I have seen. Disappointed and concerned.
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No, this is how apostates are treated. You have a voice and it can be heard, if done properly. Read the letter. He was not excommunicated for his doubts or concerns, just the manner in which he expressed them and wanted others to follow.
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You’re an idiot.
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Jesus did not do this. Is this his church or theirs? Are they ‘fallible” or not? If they are fallible when it suits them, they are fallible in the policies they create.
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And what were his choices to respond to his valid concern.? The church can’t handle any issues that might require a discussion and this proves it. They just want your blind obedience and apparently they have it! With love, Tina
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What an interesting idea. You think it is ok to treat someone this way because they are apostate. How did Jesus treat sinners? How did the Pharisees treat sinners?
You are not a defender of truth. If you were truly capable of seeing truth you’d see that the LDS church is built on a fraud. It’s all a fraud. You think you have truth. You think you’ve felt God confirming it to you, but you have closed your mind off to truth. Truth is built upon facts. Truth is impervious to your feelings. In fact, even according to your scriptures, sometimes the truth can be hard. Well defender, if you want truth, then you should look a lot closer at the foundation of your religion. It is not based on truth. The BoA was a 19th century creation of Joseph, as was the BoM. These are not ancient scriptures. This is provable through facts. Though you may feel very strongly about the truth of these scriptures, facts have a stubborn way of showing real truth.
Jesus said that by their fruits you can know them. Well, you’ve admitted it’s ok to treat someone poorly if they are an “apostate.” Your fruits are showing. Jesus associated with the unclean sinners of his day. You do not seem to know Jesus or truth.
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Every mode of dissent is treated as apostasy within the church. The first law of heaven is obedience. The LDS church insists that the members be blindly obedient to the church leaders in every way, or face excommunication. There is zero way to raise concerns within the church. Sam tried them all. Talking to leaders, taking an opposed stance to callings, working to educate his local priesthood groups. All to no avail. And now that he has tried making the issue public, just so SOMEthing happens, he is exed. Because he didn’t do it right. What is the right way?? No LDS member has been able to answer that.
Much like the Copernick/NFL scandal, people like to say they accept peaceful protest but when that peacefulness arrives, they are the ones who get frothing mad. They are the ones bringing the spirit of contention, not those like Sam, who peacefully advocate the protection of children while the LDS churches hides sexual predators and protects rapists– as long as they held the title Bishop or higher.
Disgusting. Everyone watching this from the outside sees the LDS church as mean spirited, mean minded people and I can’t say that I disagree.
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Sadly, I have learned about a sneeky, underhanded, unChristlike aspect of the church. Sam’s hunger strike and exxing have shown me this and others who are trying to show the church has been and is protecting sexual predators. I disagree that we have a voice and can be heard. If it is not in agreement to the “leaders” then your voice doesn’t count. I do not believe Sam was in apostacy, but the lds church inc. is in a great state of apostacy. He didn’t ask people to leave the church, only to protect their children. That is what Christ would want I believe.
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Sam tried the “proper” mode of raising his concerns about unprotected Mormon children.
He was summarily ignored and told to shut up.
Wake … Yourself … Up.
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He went through hell to get to where he wound up. He started with the proper authorities. He was shut down and ignored at every turn. The so-called church, left him no choice.
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Btw, defenderoftruth did you hear the word ‘Apostate’ come out of your own brain and not cringe a little? If you belong to a system that can label you an ‘Apostate,’ you’re in an unloving system. I don’t care what they say. That isn’t love. And Sam did go by the ‘proper’ channels for two years and was not allowed to communicate with anyone who had the power to hear him and make changes. The ‘done properly’ way does not get your voice heard. You lie, or you’ve never tried to have your voice heard about anything that isn’t already in the program. Sam begged to be heard, McKenna begged to be heard, countless others have begged to be heard. Did you notice, Sam’s voice wasn’t even heard in the tribunal?
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Your money and your service (as long as it suits them) is loved. I gave 26 years of my life to this church, I served a mission, married in the temple, I was a branch ^resident, temple worker, and so on. When I stood up to defend my 11 year old son, they requested me to leave. I asked to remove my name from their records and I demanded a written statement confirming that my request was processed. I only received a confirmation after threatening with a lawsuit and with going to the press here in Belgium. Then I received an e-mail. I was 21 years married and several times loval leaders called my in-laws asking for help to destroy my marriage (because I was not born in Belgium and therefore I didn’t obey the leaders to stay in my native country).
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I am so sorry for what must have happened to your son at 11 years of age, and how you were treated.
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I’m sorry that standing up for your child was met with negativity from church leaders. It really isn’t all about family as the say.
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Humans are fallible. The mormon organization is not the GOD of the Bible. Get out there and find a Bible based church and even though we are fallible you will truly find Gods love! Dont give up on God…find a Christian church because God is waiting for you to truly know Him!!! Im praying for you!
AJ
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kahuena-my previous message was for you!! AJ
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Jo, I find it interesting that you made a comment that this, the excommunication, came from higher yet have no quantifiable evidence to support it.
Jesus loved the sinner and forgave them. Sam will be entitled to that as well if he follows the commandments, as we all have to. Jesus formed His Church just as He did in the Bible. Members were excommunicated then, in the Book of Mormon times and have been in accordance to guidance given in this time.
You claim to know me, but you do not. You have nothing to base your statements off.
Sam was not treated poorly. That is simply your opinion. If you have quantifiable evidence to show otherwise, please provide them.
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Oh defenderoftruth Sam was treated poorly, the fact that you don’t see the evidence is frightening. Did you know him at all? Did you watch him open the excommunication letter? Do you know what love is? I supposed you think you do because they’ve told you what it is. But love is kind…. And Sam was not treated kindly. ‘Quantifiable evidence?’ Surely you jest? Do you know of the Quantifiable evidence showing the Book of Abraham a fraud? Yes, he said he was translating day after day, written in Abraham’s own hand.’ If you can spin the truth glaring you in your face until your brain hurts, carry on. But accusing people of having no ‘Quantifiable evidence’ from your position, is the amoeba calling a human a simplistic organism.
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Defender,
There was a recording of the proceedings. The SP spoke from carefully prepared materials and deliberately misrepresented Sam.
He cherry picked his quotes to an extent that made his case deliberately deceptive.
This is standard procedure for SLC to prepare such materials for an SP. Margaret Toscano faced a similar situation during her excommunication.
The SP did not prepare these materials. If he did, then he is even a more despicable and dishonest person than I thought.
But I’d you say if you know this guy, ask him point blank if he didn’t receive prepared materials from SLC. Ask him yourself. He will most likely tell you he can’t discuss it. Because to disclose it would unmask the process.
I don’t need to prove this to you. You can believe in your fairy tales and you can believe your SP is a good man. He isn’t. He’s a liar and a tool. An honest man would not have deliberately misquoted and misrepresented Sam’s statements.
Apparently you persist in believing in your fairy tales of the BoM and Joe Smith and the leaders of the LDS church.
It seriously makes me laugh to see people like yourself who are so indignant and self righteous in these situations. One day you’ll wake up to the lies and you’ll regret how you talked about Sam.
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“No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing”
When I learned the “standard of truth” during my time as a missionary, I figured it meant that no one outside of the mormon church could hinder progress. Since quitting more than 5 years ago and after seeing how members are treated, I now realize that it is correct. No one outside mormonism can stop them, but those who are in the mormon church are doing an excellent job exposing the falsehood and non-Jesus like actions! So many mormons have resigned their membership as a result of the decision to kick Sam out!
For those who leave, it sucks. You might lose your friends, maybe your family stops talking to you; you feel alone a lot. It sucked for me when I quit, it sucked for a while, but it got better. It gets better. It takes time, but it gets better. There are tons of people going through similar things and they are around to support you.
I see my children growing into awesome people and often wonder if they would be like this if I hadn’t quit. What non-sense or trauma would they be subject to if I had stayed? When I quit, I felt I was doing it for me, to get away from an organization that misrepresented itself for so many years, but now, I think, I really quit to save my children from being part of something that cares so little for anything other than money.
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I love you and your family Sam. I hope you can feel the support and respect a large community of people have for you and everything you’ve done.
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Thanks Jennifer! Love you, too!
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My thoughts are with you and your family. I am so grateful for what you have accomplished by refusing to be silenced, yet know the cost to you has been dear in so many ways. I found your excommunication unbelievable after reading the 29 questions, the Stories of Sacred Children, and listening to the podcasts of those harmed by church priesthood leaders. A matter of shooting the messenger and ignoring the message – to the church’s detriment. The world has taken notice and not in a good way. I read the comments on the Deseret News (church owned) story on your excommunication and was reminded of why the church is described as a beautifully decorated birthday cake with maggots inside.
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This is the same church that excommunicated Helmuth Hubener for daring to speak out against injustice. You are in good company with others who simply can’t turn a blind eye to other people’s victimization. I know it’s small comfort, but because of you, my children will never again be in a position where they might be asked sexually inappropriate questions. They won’t be shamed or bullied or manipulated by being force-fed the lie that their sins are tantamount to murder or any other such nonsense. You did that, Sam. I thank you for it.
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YES!!! Because of his actions, MANY won’t . SO well said!!!
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Small comfort? No my friend, that is huge. Thank you for protecting your children!!!
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TLM- This is a grossly misleading statement, don’t you think? The local branch president of Huebener’s branch, a known Nazi sympathizer, excommunicated Huebener without following any procedure. The church posthumously reinstated his membership. I understand this to be an anti LDS leader rant site, but to use incorrect evidence to pusyh your agenda seems petty at best.
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This decision was against all those who have felt hurt by the worthiness interview process and mishandling of abuse allegations and sexuality issues in the Church.
The LDS Church has not apologized or acknowledged the harm felt by 802+ victims. They are not following their own statement in “How the Church Approches Abuse” (Mormon Newsroom) where they stated their first concern was for victims and when they learn of additional ways to prevent abuse and help victims they implement them.
Where is the help for victims? Where is an acknowledgement that members and children have felt harmed by the Church?
It is clear from those of us who have significant professional experience with Cheld abuse prevention policies and investigation and treatment of child abuse, that the LDS Church’s child protection policies are vastly substandard and inadequate. The Church’s history of reporting abuse and lack of consistant of training leaders places large percentage of our youth at risk of being mishandled and not adequately protected from abuse. This is an institutional policy problem rather than failures of a few local leaders. The focus of the Church seems to be reducing legal liability and protection of public image, rather than prevention of abuse and assisting victims.
The Church’s response to Sam Young ignores the harm the chuch policies and agents have done.
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I’m adding my comment as a reply, because I support what Tim says. Sam, yesterday, when I heard you read the verdict, my first reaction was shock, then it was sorrow. It was sorrow for you and because I love this church and I believe it just made a mistake. This morning, upon waking up, I realized this sorrow is also personal. My issues actually about domestic violence, but abuse is abuse. There are many types and sexual is only one of them, so I’ve felt a kinship for your cause. Of all the high profile excommunications, yours felt like they were excommunicating me, as well.
I am so sorry for this outcome and so grateful to you for championing this cause.
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Eloquently expressed, Tim!
Thank you!
It’s unfortunate that “professional” style communications must be devoid of totally appropriate emotion, outrage, bad language, etc.
We tend to dismiss messengers who display fire and passion … as The Brethren have summarily dismissed Sam.
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‘Covenant path.? So they really don’t know that Jesus is the ‘covenant path,’ not them? He called himself Love. The Way. The Truth. The Life. Check check check check. You’re on it.
This letter really bothers me as it smacks of narcissism and abuse. As a victim of abuse, I know how it sounds, and how it makes you feel. I also know how love makes you feel. This letter makes me feel awful. No love at all. I used to excuse people who made me feel that way …I thought it was part of receiving constructive criticism. I thought it was my fault. I thought I had to accept their judgment of me, because they seemed like they were sure, and they acted like they had more power than me, So I believed them. And I condemned me.
But Not anymore. This letter is so full of twisted, mixed messages. Narcissists who physically or mentally abuse are known for beating you up emotionally or physically, and then saying they love you, or giving you flowers to confuse you. They condemn you for who you are, then say they love you. It makes them feel powerful, it makes me feel sick! Especially because I don’t want them to hurt you or your wonderful family. They say ‘You’re entitled to your opinion as long you STFU.’
‘As long as you remain silent when you find we are harming people, and doing nothing, you can be a ‘member in good standing.’ Hmm. That isn’t the gospel of the Jesus Christ I know nor the one in the Bible. Frankly, it sounds exactly like a predator. Standing up, not sitting down was His modus operandus. Lastly, they claim you attacked ‘The Church.’ Why does that sound so Mafia-like to me? ‘You have offended the church!’ the church is a building. It can’t get offended. And the gospel isn’t owned by anyone except God, only He can see the inside of man and judges the heart. That’s what my Bible says. So if you offended Him, that’s between you and Him. I think they don’t know what their job is as leaders of a church they so desperately want to be named after Christ and it’s almost like an unseen hand won’t let it happen! Odd.
All that said, I’m sorry they treated you this way. It’s so painful. We’re all behind you and love you. We see you even if they don’t. I do not believe any God of love could possibly be pushing a son away who tries so hard to emulate him and care for the wounded and protect the children etc. How could that be, when he went looking for the lost sheep or looked daily for the prodigal son? He never threw out anybody who would even consider staying near him, much less someone for fighting for right and good! I remember when the disciples rebuked a guy for doing a job they thought was theirs alone, and Jesus rebuked them and said ‘he that is not against us, is FOR us!’ (meaning right and good, not them and their own personal egos/agendas). Crying out for change from ‘fallible men’ is not the equivalent of open rebellion against Jesus. They can’t say ‘we are men, men are fallible’ when it suits them, and say it’s an act of apostasy to openly point out a flaw in something they’re doing. They have become experts at spin, gaslighting and outright deception. Those are not the tools Jesus used, he said ‘nothing have I said in secret.’ They keep everything secret. It’s hard to believe a whole organization can be wrong about you, but I now know, really know that they were wrong about me. They are wrong about you!
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Thank you, dear Fabled, for your impassioned, eloquently expressed support for Sam and all he stands for.
The contrast between the fruits of The Brethren and the fruits of Sam Young have come into virtually black and white focus … for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
Others block the obvious with self-imposed blinders and resort to shooting the messenger bearing an uncomfortable message.
That is totally understandable.
What lifelong member of the Church wants to face the fact that he or she has dedicated a huge fraction of their life energy to an institution whose ostensibly righteous teachings and standards of morality have resulted in the HIGHEST TEEN SUICIDE RATE (for Utah) IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY?
What Mormon wants to tell themselves this?
“I support an institution that literally kills innocent children with its teachings about sexual purity … for the heinous debauchery of what? …. doing what? Why does my beloved institution kill children? For masturbating?”
This is NOT an oversimplification. This is NOT a complicated problem. Nor is its solution complicated. It’s only 9 words:
NO ONE-ON-ONE INTERVIEWS; NO SEX QUESTIONS; EVER!
(It used to be ten words, but has been correctly clarified to nine words. Why? Because “Do you obey the Law of Chastity” is not a sexually explicit question. It is, however, unmistakably a SEX QUESTION. It is asking you about YOUR SEXUAL BEHAVIORS. It is the GATEWAY SEX QUESTION that can (and very often DOES) lead to sexually explicit questions including anything on the list of 29 questions as fair game for Bishops in a child worthiness interview, with DO YOU MASTURBATE? at the top of the list.)
The dark underbelly of the Protect LDS Children initiative is the REAL REASON The Brethren will not budge on the ubiquitous sex-shaming of LDS youth. Many will have trouble believing the reality that Sam Young is quite literally messing with the FOOD SUPPLY that keeps The Brethren maintained in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed. Institutionalized GUILT and SHAME are key tools employed by Mind Control Cult Professionals (meaning this is what these parasites literally do for a living) to maintain control of their Host Food Source. The Brethren are fully cognizant of how critically essential these sex-shaming interviews are for their end game of hooking vulnerable tithe payers for life. Sex-shamed kids become sex-shamed adults who have been brainwashed to look to their Church leaders as the final and ultimate authority and adjudicator of their personal worthiness and self-esteem.
You think The Brethren are going to voluntarily LET THAT GO?
Dream on.
The Brethren are indeed PROTECTING LDS CHILDREN …. as in PROTECTING THEIR FOOD SOURCE.
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I totally agree. I’ve always believed that the real issue is the church battling to retain control over the children and elbowing parents and parental authority out of the way to achieve this. My parents remained children themselves, accepting the church and its direction as their parent over them and their family. The never matured into whole, emotionally healthy and independent adults.
I notice a pathetic desperation in the comments of those who defend the church’s right to sexually abuse children.
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Thank you Gary. Great points!
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What does it mean that ‘you may not speak in Church meetings’? Does that mean you can’t give a formal sermon or testimony in sacrament meeting? Or does it also mean you can’t offer a simple comment in Sunday school class?
Lame either way.
I have stake, ward and general conference over the next 3 Sundays in a row. Looks like I’ll get to vote opposed 3 times way out here in Charlotte, NC.
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He can’t speak at all, as in answering questions, or teaching, or asking questions. He cannot speak at fast and testimony meeting either. He can’t even give a prayer at church. Glad you are voting opposed. You’re right, it’s lame.
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“He can’t speak at all, as in answering questions, or teaching, or asking questions. He cannot speak at fast and testimony meeting either.”
Neither can members, unless they say the status quo. Otherwise they are in jeopardy of being silenced and escorted out of the building.
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We live in an ever deteriorating world. Evidence of this is the dire situation Sam has shown. Sam has painted the church leadership and culture as if they are pedophilic in nature. Nothing could be further from the truth! The church leadership has the obligation as the Lord’s servents to protect the sanctity of the law of chastity. Youth are interviewed as to their striving to become like Jesus Christ, even a disciple of Jesus Christ. Chastity is a law of heaven, of God. Youth are interviewed and asked about their obedience to all the laws that pertain to them of which includes the law of chastity. Whether it comes from the Savior’s mouth or one of his servents it is the same.
We all know, even through our own experiences that our youth years are often plagued with many temptations to act contrary to the law of chastity. Many, if not all youth give in to these temptations in one degree or another. The duty and obligation of parents and church leaders is to help youth and adults alike to repent and turn back towards the covenants they have made to live the law of chastity. This church is a church of healing, of gaining forgiveness and becoming more like Jesus Christ. Most leaders are led by the spirit in conducting interviews and making reccomendations that help a person grow. Just as is the case with any organization though, there are a few who will take advantage of situations. The churches policy change was to correct, or help correct a small flaw.
The truth is that Sam Young started losing his testimony of Jesus Christ years ago and with that questioning came everything else he decided he didn’t like about this church. This was just the one issue that took traction and so he ran with it. Sam’s self aggrandisement is to fruition now, he had his reward- loved by the world.
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Correct a “small flaw”?
Let me clarify what that “small flaw” includes, Robert.
It includes the stunning achievement of winning the NUMBER ONE RANKING for Utah as the hands-down leader for the incidence per capita of TEEN SUICIDES in the entire country.
The trouble is, Robert, that that “small flaw” remains UNCORRECTED!
ONE-ON-ONE GROOMING INTERVIEWS ARE STILL OK;
SEX QUESTIONS ARE STILL TOTALLY OK.
Mormon teenagers are KILLING THEMSELVES largely due to masturbation shaming dispensed by well-meaning Bishops who are CLUELESS regarding the egregious emotional abuse they routinely dish out to adolescent human beings caught committing the MORMON CRIME of discovering their own sexuality and sexual response … and ENJOYING the transcendent ecstasy of the human orgasm … created by … whom? Who created the human orgasm, Robert? Was it Satan?
For all we know, Jesus Himself probably masturbated. That is conjecture, of course, but to the extent that Jesus was a physical human being sporting gonads and hormones, high odds are that one fine day He discovered another use for his penis … as he masturbated for the very first time. And if He did it once, high odds are He did it more than once. (The only real question is … when Jesus ejaculated, did he point his ecstatic, cross-eyed, delirious-with-pleasure gaze heavenward and call out, “Thank you, Jesus!”? Then did Heavenly Father call down from the heavens and tell His Beloved Son in a booming voice that Jesus had just committed a sin next to murder, and He better not ever do it again?)
We do know that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had kids with her. We also have discovered that Santa Claus is a myth. Santa Claus does not really exist. At least Jesus existed. Gotta give Him credit for existing. That’s way more than you can say for the cartoon characters in the Book of Mormon.
Sorry … I digressed a bit there. If I offended you, it is about YOU feeling offended when someone tries to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Nobody wants their fantasy bubble burst. Most people will patch the holes until the whole shelf breaks and crashes to the ground. Where are you in YOUR process of waking yourself up, Robert?
What is NOT conjecture is this: If Jesus Christ were to show up and join the Mormon Church, it would not be long before The Brethren would order Jesus’ stake president to excommunicate His disobedient arse for daring to Protect LDS Children.
Wake … Yourself … Up.
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Totally agree with everything you said. I keep hearing ‘well meaning bishops’ and I have come to the conclusion that it would be awfully hard to shame a child, and be a good man. I think the well meaning bishops are the ones who don’t do it, like Sam. The ones who shame children, I couldn’t do it. Could you? I believe there’s a few so mind controlled they just go through the motions, terrifying because they are cut off completely from themselves, their own humanity, if they are well meaning and shaming a child. Or anyone. I just question that phrase. Have you thoughts on that? I just cringe when I hear it, it’s like a stamp that excuses them all. And the ones who did it to me, enjoyed every minute of the power they had. The Good men, did not shame me, tho there were only 2 of those. I think that power driven (evil) people are drawn to positions that in turn, make them eligible to be bishop. Not always. But a large part of them. They like power over others. And since that is love’s antithesis, I don’t consider them ‘well meaning.’ Thoughts? I loved the other points you made and just thought I’d point out this one phrase that rolls off everyone’s tongue to see if you’ve thought it out. 😊
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Gary, It’s really blasphemy to speak of Jesus Christ the way you have. May God have mercy on your soul.
I have looked into suicide statistics and find it rather interesting that it is a plague in the whole west, especially the Rocky Mountains. But, if you look real carefully at the suicides by county and surrounding states you will notice the suicide rates are actually higher in areas less affected by LDS populations. In fact, the state of Utah did a research project and found interaction with religion and community we’re the leading factors in preventing suicide. People want to blame the church for suicide but the real statistics do not support such false claims.
Sam may say he wants to protect the children. Let’s call them “youth” – “teenagers” if you will because that’s who we are really talking about. I find it of interest he chooses to use the word “children” as if we are speaking of innocent small children. But that’s not the group in the discussion crosshairs. The ones in the crosshairs of debate are the youth- the young men and young women members of our church. I was a young man once, a few decades ago. In some regards I was a typical troubled youth- did drugs, drank, smoked, got caught up in immoral behavior, etc. I was kicked out of high school and was basically forced to undergo counseling. During those years I had several worthiness interviews with various bishops. I eventually fell away from the church for about a decade. I know what it’s like to have those interviews and even lie straight faced to them. Now some 30 years later, and much eiser I understand the importance of those youth interviews. Youth are much better off when they have parents and leaders who care about their welfare. Sams advocating basically that youth should be completely off the hook for answering up to their immoral behavior, that a bishop should have no access or ability to question the youth as to their worthiness within God’s kingdom. Sam thinks that our youth should be completely immune to having to discuss morality. It’s like he wants to give them the secret key or green light to experiment without repercussions. That’s not protecting our youth.
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No, it’s about shaming anyone under the age of 18.
So, are there any of those 29 questions that you object a bishop asking a teenager?
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Thank you Robert. Finally someone who understands the purpose of interviews. These rest of this rhetoric is coming from either non members or those who couldn’t live the gospel . To those I would say, move on and let those of us who believe in the restored gospel, live I religion and follow God’s chosen prophets. And to those who keep speaking as if they are experts…UTAH IS NUMBER 5 IN SUICIDE RATES.
Speaking for Sam, whom I have known for 30 years, he never lost his testimony of the teachings of Christ. Although he did say once that he wasn’t sure Christ ever existed. He lost his testimony of the Church and it’s leaders. He wasn’t ever specific, so I don’t know if it was all or a few. But he has been voting opposed for over two years. And he turned in his Temple Reccommend. That, my friends is the actions of an apostate. My advice would be for those who agree with Sam and John, start your own church of Sam and John. That seems like something that would work for both sides.
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My definition of an apostate is much different than yours, Janice. If voting opposed is the definition of apostasy, why would Christ have ever implemented the Law of Common Consent. When the leaders minimized and infantalized this God-given law, they turned their back on Christ’s mandated governance of His church. That, my friends is the action of apostates—turning away from Christ and His directives.
But that is not the issue that I’m focused on. Protecting our kids and healing our past victims is where I’m spending my blood, sweat, tears and treasure. If I were to turn away from the children and the wounded then I would truly be in apostasy.
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Oh Janice, you may have known of Sam for 30 years, but you have not ‘known Sam Young.’
And…
‘Suicide is the leading cause of death for Utah youths ages 10 to 17. The state’s suicide rate for all ages is more than 60 percent above the national average.Apr 8, 2018’ SLTrib. not#1 #5 but the leading cause. I don’t think #5 is much better than #1, but ok, if someone said #1 in the nation, they would be incorrect. You get to be the ‘Expert’ today. But if they said #1 cause of death, they would be correct. I’m sure you’re checking. But what the hell does it matter? How many does it take to prove there is a problem in Utah? How many journals and last letters left by these kids who are loathing themselves because of the shaming they are receiving behind closed doors? It is a problem. And if standing up and trying to be heard for children, if reaching out to heal the wounded is ‘Apostate,’ and if showing more love to people than I’ve seen in a lifetime is ‘Apostate,’ then that is a badge from the Mormon church, but he’ll wear it with honor as he has being doing. But he is not an Apostate from Jesus Christ. I stand as a witness. He follows Christ. Jesus Christ is not a church, he is not a man, he is not a temple made with hands. He is love. And He never leaves us. He will never forsake us. And nobody is ‘moving on.’ Nah, we aren’t going anywhere. And believe it or not, I don’t follow Sam, I don’t follow John, I follow Jesus. I don’t need a church for that. He’s the Way, HE IS the TRUTH, and he’s right there anytime I need Him. I don’t need a church. I don’t need a middleman. I know you won’t hear anything I’ve said, but keep your ear to the ground, cuz we are coming to protect the children.
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Dear FC,
It is sweet pleasure for me to read someone speaking Truth and speaking Truth so eloquently.
Truth needs no defense. Truth stands on the rock of its own unassailability … as also does Love.
Love and Truth are everything we need to know.
This is what Jesus taught.
So simple. So beautiful.
Forgiveness, not judgment.
Acceptance, not probing scrutiny.
This is what makes Sam Young’s heart beat.
And … The Brethren have demonstrated to the world that they play by different rules in the Handbook they wrote … all by themselves.
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Thank you Gary! And yes, the brethren and the cowards in the court, know nothing of love or truth, and Sam Young put them in a spot where they had to show their true lack of love. Had he faced off in debate with them, he never could have pulled off them displaying who they are, but they were cornered, they didn’t know how to play on the playing field of love.
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I agree with you Robert Osborn. It will be interesting to see if Sam’s leaving the church through excommunication, will now set his mind at peace and let him move on with his life. Or, will he be like so many others and be unable to leave it alone???? He has stated his concerns, objections, disagreements, etc. and he has received an answer – excommunication. May he move on with his life and reflect on his experience in the LDS Church as just one of life’s experiences. In my opinion he has paid a huge price to “win”. So sorry for him.
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Carolyn,
It is stunning how TBMs reflexively blind themselves to anything that does not paint The Brethren in glowing halo light.
Sam was AND IS all about Protecting LDS Children.
You are puzzling about why Sam will not go away and leave the Children to Protect Themselves … which is precisely how The Brethren have decided to solve the problem.
Problem?
What problem?
There is no problem … except for … Sam Young.
Problem solved.
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Well… 1) you are 10% richer 2) REPENT FOR WHAT? You have no repentance whatsoever that needs to be done. Like we have all said, you are amazing! You are hero to so many. Please know that God loves you!!
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“With love” Actions speak louder than words.
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This excommunication is the living proof that God doesn’t speak to LDS leaders and that the church is a fraud.
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Sam,
No blessings have been stripped from you. The church kicked you out of its club, big deal. Whatever relationship you have with God, ie, priesthood, promises, covenants, etc, are between you and HIM. The church cannot take those away because you know how you stand with HIM. They don’t matter, HE does. This is what I have learned and I hope you can come to this understanding as well. You are doing the very thing that HE would have you do, that is to protect the least of those amongst us. You are doing HIS work. God bless you for this effort.
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It’s so silly how they say that it’s not about your stance but about how you expressed it and tried to gather people to “your” cause. That reminds me of southerners saying the civil war wasn’t about slavery, it was about states rights. States rights to do what? Own slaves? It’s merely pointing to something that’s in the middle of an inevitable chain and saying it’s about that, rather than the inevitable conclusion that chain leads to. You were excommunicated not because you wanted to protect children but because you were loud and tried to gather people to your cause. What cause? Protecting children! You were too loud and tried to get people to join with you in … PROTECTING CHILDREN!
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Let the sifting continue. Thanks for helping weed out the unconsecrated Sam. Truly the prideful become unknowing tools of the Lord.
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Dan, what do you mean? I am not smart enough to decode your post. Who are “the prideful” and how do they become tools of the Lord … tools to do what? Is some of that sarcasm? I can’t tell.
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Exing is barbaric shunning rejection and judgement
Opposite of what Christ did and said
You are a Christlike example the church and leaders are not
They are members of the church of Joseph smith
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Church of Joseph’s Myth
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They have no power to take your priesthood membership or sealings etc because they do not represent Christ— he would not agree and the church is supposed to his
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I’m sure you’ve been mentally preparing yourself for this, Sam. but remember that you’ll still go through all the stages of grieving – and remember that all of us who have supported you are here for you if you need us for anything.
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All of the crimes listed are against the Church. No reference to Jesus or Christianity unril the very end, and that is just a “jesus loves you” platitude.
Apparently Sam you are guilty of violating the Handbook of Instruction. At least you haven’t pissed Jesus off, just a bloated and poorly managed company with a business model dating back to the 1930s.
No worries, mate. You have done your best and for that I thank you.
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Sam,
There’s not much I can say, but I’m sorry things have unfolded as they have. I wish for you a reason to hope, peace and solace in your home. That your friends will build you up and that your faith will never waver. I also hope that your heart will remain pure and your spirit will not be conquered, but resolved to do good where ever you are able.
– Nobody
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If you can’t participate in sustaining the brethren, can you still vote opposed 😂
Thank you Sam for what you have done for the children. The fight will continue!
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Very typical of Cult actions. Leave the non-Christian LDS and seek the true Christ of the Bible. The real Christ would not condemn your actions.
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In light of Mr. Young’s aggressive attack against the Church, there was no other choice for the church leaders to make. Even Mr. Young said as much.
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It is almost impossible to say thank you, Sam. Your sacrifices are acknowledged by me and by so many others. Mormonism is better because you were a part of it and because you stood up for what is right.
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So does the moderator only allow comments that one-sided in his favor? I OPPOSE this! (Which will probably do me about as much good as it did Mr. Young in conference.)
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To my knowledge, Sam does not “moderate” aka edit or delete posts to his blog. If so, he would be within his rights to delete at least half of my posts.
I still invite Sam to delete anything I post that he considers too far over the line. I don’t waste much time with subtleties.
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Too far over the line? Come on Gary, you know that all of your posts are too far over the line. That’s why I love you my friend. You are willing to speak your mind. When someone one the other side of the fence makes post over the line, I let it stand, too. One of my big problems with the church is that open and honest conversations are not permitted by Mormon cultural proclivities. No way am I going to delete comments on either side. Well…there have been exceptions. When someone called me a pedophile…I excommunicated that one.
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This does not make sense, Sam. So sorry.
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 2:14 AM Tocubit Is Invisible’s Cubit wrote:
> Sam Young posted: ” I, Sam Young, have been excommunicated from The Church > of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Following is the official > notification. HOUSTON TEXAS SOUTH STAKE September 12, 2018 Brother Young, > This letter is to inform you of the decision of the dis” >
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“The issue is not that you have concerns–or even that you disagree with the Church’s guidelines, rather it is your persistent, aggressive effort to persuade others to your point of view by repeatedly and deliberately attacking and publicly opposing the Church and its leaders. ”
Translation (with multiple instances of appropriate profanity redacted):
“The issues is that you, Sam Young, did not SHUT *** **** UP when we commanded you to SHUT *** **** UP. You are EXCOMMUNICATED because you refused to OBEY OUR ORDERS and SHUT *** **** UP. What was it about our ORDER that you SHUT *** **** UP that you did not understand, Sam? You are EXCOMMUNICATED for DISOBEDIENCE. We do not five a flying **** WHAT SAM YOUNG THINKS OR DOES NOT THINK, but when you DISOBEY a direct order from your Priesthood Leaders and make The Brethren look like Child Abusing Predator Protectors in the public media, you have done crossed the line, Buddy.”
If The Brethren do not actually use Bad Language in public or private, they SHOULD USE BAD LANGUAGE in the name of Truth in Advertising.
They are Bad People.
Bad Brethren. They Be Bad. Very Bad.
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: … we do not give [not five] a flying **** …”
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… and Sam, please feel free to delete my post. Really. Some people appreciate well-placed bad language. Others are reflexively offended and totally miss the point. Others will see my post as childish and immature. May God help us all to be more adultish and mature.
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I know we see things a little differently Sam, but you may enjoy some irony at least. https://jimoeba.wordpress.com/2018/09/18/vatican-hands-over-the-keys/
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Sam, I am a Jesus-follower. I am not Morman, ever. I became aware of you through the fb page ‘Morman and Lds facts. I have never comprehended the teachings of the group of people. Now…well?
I am pleasantly surprised at the many threads of comments to you in many postings how much support there is to this cause. Usually in any threads lately for Anything there is decisiveness. Not so much that I see for you. That says something that you are speaking truth and truth for others who haven’t been able to have a voice. Even if it means trouble for you. I loved when you read your letter publicly that you didn’t back down, your heart hurt, you were sad, but your heart knew what needed to change and you were willing to sacrifice your joy for the sake of others, specifically children!
You remind me of John Newton back in the 1700’s of England. God woke him up and he began to fight for the slaves freedom instead of being a part of it. The song Amazing Grace came out from his changed heart and mind. If you have not ever seen the more recent movie depicting Newton’s life called ‘Amazing Grace’ I would recommend a good watch. Keep up the good fight. And Thank You!
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I wonder why you are protecting the identity of the Stake President who excommunicated you. He is a man who believes that he has the power to stand between God and Man and invalidate a holy and sacred covenant relationship which, according to church doctrine, will result in your being sent to hell. The audacity! He needs to be seen for his own cowardly, spiritually violent and heretical actions far more than you or sinners. Thank you for your efforts.
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Sam’s stake president is Mind-Controlled by The Brethren.
One of the first things Sam did after opening and reading his excommunication letter was to forgive his stake president, who Sam realized was ordered from above to pull the excommunication trigger and pretend it was a local decision.
Sam loves his fellow man, woman, boy and girl … even those who know not what they do.
It is a tall order to love The Brethren … who know damn well what they do. God knows I don’t feel much love for The Brethren … but at least I will admit it.
Maybe it makes it easier to love The Brethren to realize they are hopelessly lost addicts … drunk on power, rock star adoration by millions, and the money …. endless mountain meadows of beautiful green money … as far as the eye can see. There is a green hill far away … green because it’s a giant pile of money.
Taking it a step further, maybe it’s even possible to muster some compassion for Dallin, Jeffrey, Rusty and their exclusive club. None of them have the spiritual capacity to allow themselves to feel authentic care and concern for other human beings. No way could they possibly hold authentic, genuine, Christ-like caring and compassion for others … and continue to do what they do … and keep on doing it … despite the HUGE COURSE CORRECTION OPPORTUNITY Sam has served up for them on a silver platter.
No thank you, Sam. We’re not interested. Just go away.
Jesus taught us to judge not. That becomes difficult when it comes to powerful people treating the innocent and vulnerable as consumable food with no regard for the collateral damage and suffering they inflict without a thought.
My view of the Big Picture will eventually gift The Brethren with perfect opportunities to fully appreciate what it feels like to be on the RECEIVING END of their brand of how to “love” others. Since they are quite old, most likely their Continuing Education will not happen until a future lifetime when they return for another wild ride on Planet Earth … here to experience whatever it might take to wake them up to finally understand and internalize … the beautiful teachings of Jesus.
In the meantime, we continue to be entertained by Spiritual Dwarfs practicing Spiritual Dwarfism on the world stage for all to see and appreciate.
(No offense to actual LIttle People intended.)
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HaroldTheCat,
The 29 questions I cannot answer for as there is no evidence to back up such claims. All I can say is from my own experience and only a couple of those questions were brought up and I didn’t feel they were inappropriate. The church made a policy change. Sam may appeal to anti-LDS or disfellowshipped LDS because they need fuel for their fire. The truth is it’s rather rare and extreme for a bishop to abuse his authority in this manner of questioning with the youth. One simply cannot make a case without unwarranted claims. The few who are abusing their authority should be dismissed from the church. But- and here’s the real problem, it doesn’t matter what policy changes that are made if you have predators out there. They are in every organization- in therapists, social workers, schools, etc. Some people will always find ways to abuse their authority and take advantage of others. The church really doesn’t have a problem with bishops taking advantage of youth. It’s very rare, it’s not like Sam makes it out to be. A bishop should be able to ask a youth if he has a problem with pornography and immoral behavior. I am a current Young Men president in my ward. The number one problem we have identified with our youth is pornography and sex. So, we discuss it quite a bit. There is no crime in discussing immoral behavior. We live in a world of ever increasing snowflake mentalities now though. The real problem is that the youth aren’t being taught or brought up with correct moral compasses. Parents aren’t doing their jobs in large part. The world is getting bad. Pornography is a huge plague, even in the church. My best friend killed himself because his lifelong addiction to porn led him to commit a grevious crime of which he couldn’t fathom facing the consequences. No one wanted to address his porn problem when he was in his youth. Let me ask- maybe we should let more youth become abusers of themselves and others and make suicide a real epidemic because no one can be allowed to discuss immoral behavior with them, is that what you are thus advocating?
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“…no one can be allowed to discuss immoral behavior with them, is that what you are thus advocating?”
Nope. There is a time, place, and manner for adults to talk about sex with those who are under age 18. Chastity, morality, and sexual topics are appropriate to be taught in a constructive way by parents and at church only in group settings; not one-one-one interviews, which results in the interviewee feeling shame in many cases. In these group settings church leadership and teachers can teach students what it means to follow Christ’s commandments. The question: Are you keeping Christ’s commandments should suffice to determine worthiness, otherwise an interview turns into an interrogation with unnecessary probing questions and grooming.
“The few who are abusing their authority should be dismissed from the church.”
This isn’t happening often enough. Not only that, the leadership should call law enforcement when crimes take place. Moreover, it’s not healthy for a religion when church leaders sweep violations under the rug and pay hush money to keep victims from speaking out. Also, Sam, many others and I, are advocating for better training of church leaders and criminal background checks for those who work with those under age 18. The current policies to protect LDS children from potential predators doesn’t go far enough. It seems they do more to protect the counting of church monetary donations than they do those under age 18, by requiring two or more people to handle it.
I think lay church leaders need much better training. It would be healthier for wards to use professionals when necessary, and more often than they do now.
Since a church court consists of more than one person, confessionals could have more than one priesthood holder for men, and I support female leaders taking the confessional of other females. The Mormon Church needs to become a safer place for the membership.
Sometimes “clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the church or its leaders,” is the right thing to do, especially when a church hides abuses, protects the abusers, and fails to create reasonable policies to protect children.
Some people have used “proper” channels to address concerns with both their local and general leaders, yet sufficient change doesn’t happen. This leaves people to use unconventional methods to achieve adequate results. Perhaps this includes suspending good manners when confronting key people in an organization about the issue, especially when they won’t stop smear campaigns and other methods to silence people. Sometimes revolutions (non-violent) are necessary, even in the restored church in order to protect its good name and advance human flourishing.
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Thank you, HaroldTheCat, for a very thoughtful and balanced post on this complicated topic.
I will throw in a sidebar and point out that problems are rarely solved until the CORE CAUSE is discovered and remedied.
My ROOT CAUSE analysis is this:
The Brethren have no interest in stopping the sex-shaming of members of their Church … members of all ages … not just the youth. Sex-shaming is a key ingredient in support of the HIGHEST PRIORITIES of The Brethren.
Behaviors tell all. Just take a look at what The Brethren PROTECT with their policies and procedures … and what they DO NOT PROTECT.
Sentient beings naturally PROTECT what they CARE ABOUT.
Sentient beings naturally LEAVE AT RISK what they DO NOT CARE ABOUT.
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The one being interviewed shouldnt feel ashamed if tgey are doing no wrong. But, as members who have made holy covenants and are aware of their morality, they should be trying to keep those covenants. The greatest guilts and shame come from immorality. Its no wonder that Gods rules ard so strict as God does not want us to endure shame and guilt. The one on one interviews are not likely going to stop. Many youth need the one on one with a loving and caring bishop to work through personal problems. If they feel uncomfortable they can invite in an adult of their choice.
The church doesnt sweep criminal activity under the rug. Im not sure where people get this claim. The main job of the bishop is with the youth, to try to help them as much as possible. The church does need to keep straight and balanced books but trust me when I say its not the main goal of the church. The main goal of the church is to lead people to Christ for healing. The amount of time a bishopric spends doing this task versus the money end is like night and day, overwhelmingly the time spent by a ward is teaching the gospel and helping others.
I agree that church leaders can be better trained. But, I also believe that training has more to do with following the spirit. Things generally dont change overnight but take years. And again, its rather rare to have a bishop who is abusing his authority and position. In general, the interviews are uplifting and encouraging for the youth. For those who are breaking their covenants its a means to get back on track and feel better about oneself. If a person feels like they are being shamed its usually because they are trying to justify their behavior in the face of justice.
This church doesnt harbor and hide pedophiles, I can guarentee you that! You make it sound as if there is this huge problem and a grand conspiricy to cover it up. Its a ridiculous claim. The truth is theres this very small problem and the church has adequately responded. We cant police everyones actions. Some will always find ways around policy to take advantage of youth.
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Rob,
Thank you for your thoughtful post. This discussion truly needs your input … because your expressed views are likely mirrored by the majority of active Mormons.
I will confess that several of your statements lept off the screen and hit me in the face as either needing more definition or as misstatements of demonstrable reality. Let’s dive in … (typos corrected)
“The one being interviewed shouldn’t feel ashamed if they are doing no wrong.”
Your definition of “wrong” is the crux of that statement, of course.
Rob, is masturbation wrong? Is it a sin? Does masturbation render a kid morally unclean? Unworthy to partake of the sacrament or do baptisms for the dead? Or receive an Aaronic Priesthood office? Or go on a mission? Or have some decent self-esteem and sense of personal goodness?
If masturbation is wrong, Rob, then most LDS kids are unworthy in between being temporarily worthy. They get to spend their adolescence on a wild Hamster Wheel … riding the Worthy/Oops/Unworthy/Focus on not touching yourself/I really wanna, but I’ll feel like shit if I do./Don’t do it … but the urge is haunting me/ Get thee behind me, Satan!/Phew. I am still worthy … then/Oops. Dammit! I just couldn’t stop myself … now I feel like a piece of shit all over again … etc. treadmill.
Is that the Plan of Salvation, Robert? God gives us a powerful sex drive fueled by hormones … and if we access the best-ecstasy-sensation-we’ve-ever-felt Candy Store we were born with … we go to hell with a red M tattoed on our forehead?
“But, as members who have made holy covenants and are aware of their morality, they should be trying to keep those covenants. The greatest guilts and shame come from immorality. Its no wonder that Gods rules ard so strict as God does not want us to endure shame and guilt.”
Did God say masturbation is immoral, Rob?
“The one on one interviews are not likely going to stop”
I agree on that, but not for the reasons you are giving.
“Many youth need the one on one with a loving and caring bishop to work through personal problems.”
Does “personal problems” include the inability to force yourself to never masturbate?
“If they feel uncomfortable they can invite in an adult of their choice.”
And then confess to masturbating? And then feeling … feeling what? The loving kindness of a caring Bishop? Or maybe a crushing load of guilt and shame? For doing what?
“The church doesn’t sweep criminal activity under the rug.”
That is literally a true statement. The Church sweeps sex abuse crimes on over to Kirton-McConkie … not under the rug. Rob, your head is in the sand if you have shielded yourself from Mormon Sex Crimes that have been public knowledge for decades by now. The crimes that don’t make the news are “handled” with some of your tithing money, Rob. I should find you an attorney link so you can fix your serious information gap. I can’t find the video I watches a few weeks ago. Here’s plenty more to choose from:
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS762US762&biw=1920&bih=938&tbm=vid&ei=96qkW6vCFtSy0PEPl62-2Ag&q=mormon+sex+abuse+cover+up&oq=mormon+sex+abuse+cover+up&gs_l=psy-ab.3…24525.30187.0.31863.22.14.0.0.0.0.166.1273.11j3.14.0….0…1c.1.64.psy-ab..12.1.94…33i10k1.0.kqTVUGb_ucI
“Im not sure where people get this claim.”
Try this news report … ten days ago.
https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-leaked-document-sheds-light-on-lds-churchs-handling-of-seven-sex-abuse-cases
“The main job of the bishop is with the youth, to try to help them as much as possible”
Rob, I truly believe that the vast majority of Bishops are decent and loving men who love the kids in their charge and do their best to guide kids along life’s challenges.
Most, unfortunately, any Bishop who believes masturbation is a moral sin … and makes it his business to monitor the underpants of all the kids in his ward … will be doing far more harm than good. Check out the hundreds of stories on proteceldschildren.org for a mountain of evidence of egregious suffering caused by worthiness interviews. And we’re not talking about the small percentage of Bishops who are child molesters. We’re talking about decent and loving Bishops doing the level best to help kids … crippled by bad information dispensed by The Brethren … that masturbation is a ticket to hell.
“The church does need to keep straight and balanced books but trust me when I say its not the main goal of the church.”
….er… then why are Church finances a GIANT SECRET … even from those who earn the money and hand it over?
“The main goal of the church is to lead people to Christ for healing.”
And to teach kids to stop masturbating long enough to pass a worthiness interview ,,, without lying?
“The amount of time a bishopric spends doing this task versus the money end is like night and day, overwhelmingly the time spent by a ward is teaching the gospel and helping others.”
“This church doesnt harbor and hide pedophiles, I can guarentee you that!”
Rob. Sorry, but saying you can guarantee the Church does not harbor and hide pedophiles is right up there with your personal guarantee that Joseph Smith did not tell any tall tales about his founding of the Church.
I will leave it at that for now. I don’t blame you for defending what you sincerely believe. It is human nature to distort facts and evidence to fit what you want to be true. All humans do it. I do it. It’s folly to think that your or my perception of reality is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
A key point in this discussion is masturbation and whether doing it makes the doer morally compromised and in need of repentance and abstinence.
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Robert,
You wrote:
“The 29 questions I cannot answer for as there is no evidence to back up such claims.”
I do not understand. How can you write that with a straight face, Robert?
Sam has compiled hundreds of first-hand testimony accounts of personal experience of actual people … during THEIR OWN Bishop interviews.
” … there is no evidence?” Hmmm ….
Let me rephrase your statement for you, Robert. Try this:
“The 29 questions I cannot answer for as I do not believe the evidence that Sam has published from hundreds of self-styled, so-called victims who claim they experienced so-called negative effects, including so-called self-loathing they allege resulted from supposedly pornographic questions about sex supposedly asked by their Bishops.”
I overdid that for effect, but you get my point, Robert. (BTW, I should not have used the word “pornographic” in the same sentence with the word “Bishop.” The TBM brain cannot process those two words that close together. Sorry about that … I just failed to appreciate the sensitivities of my reader. I apparently still have lots of room-for-improvement as a communicator, but that does not seem to stop me.)
Let’s boil that down to 5 words. Is this better?
“I don’t believe Sam’s evidence.”
OK. The rest of your post indicates you see no obvious problems or downside effects of sexually detailed Bishop interviews … Why? Because so many youth in your area are out-of-control with sex and porn? And it needs to stop? And Bishop worthiness interviews are a critically important tool for controlling sexual behavior of LDS youth?
You answered my next question in advance?
So, Robert, then … how well is the current practice of Bishop worthiness interviews working for you so far?
Sounds like an abysmal FAILURE from what you wrote.
Let me ask you the next question … which you apparently have not yet asked yourself.
WHY ARE BISHOPS’ WORTHINESS INTERVIEWS SO INEFFECTIVE AT MAKING LDS YOUTH ABSTAIN FROM WATCHING PORN AND/OR MASTURBATING AND/OR ENGAGING SEXUAL BEHAVIORS WITH OTHERS AND/OR GETTING PREGNANT?
I could write my thoughts, but instead, I will invite you to think about that and respond … if you care to.
Thank you for posting, Robert. What you wrote is an IMPORTANT PERSPECTIVE on this topic. Why? Because perhaps the MAJORITY of active TBMs parents and leaders likely share your views and observations … and see the cessation of one-on-one worthiness interviews behind closed doors including sexually detailed questioning of LDS youth … AS A GIANT STEP BACKWARDS.
Restated succinctly … my question is:
Under the current practice of Bishops’ worthness interviews, why are so many LDS kids sexually fucked up?
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… one more comment …
Robert, you wrote:
“A bishop should be able to ask a youth if he has a problem with pornography and immoral behavior.”
Of course, your definition of “problem” and “immoral behavior” is the crux of the issue. In fact, don’t those definitions determine IF THERE IS A PROBLEM … OR IF THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM?
I invite you to take it from there, Robert. And please do not presume that I think LDS kids overdosing on porn and sex is a good idea. I do not. A fair question is, however, if that is happening, then WHY is that happening?
(Please do not blame Satan. He gets blamed for stuff he did not do …. caused actually by regular people.)
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Gary, the problem is across the board, with all youth regardless of religion or not. In my own study and witnessing, LDS youth are better than others with staying morally pure. Why? Because our standards are higher, we talk to our youth and expect greatness from them. When they do make mistakes there is an actual path for complete renewal for them. This isnt a LDS problem, its worlwide and knows no boundaries. The church is doing something about it, others choose not to.
I never said I didnt believe Sams 29 questions were real or fake. Its just heresay at this pount. I cant really comment on it as there isnt a means to be in every interview in every circumstance. I do know this- bishop worthiness interviews are not composed of the 29 questions. So I dont know where Sam really comes up with those questions, its mere heresay to me. Yeah sure, maybe there is a rogue bishop or two out there but in general bishop interviews are not what Sam makes them out to be. He makes it sound as if every bishop is acting criminally with our youth. That is dishonest.
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Rob, thanks again for your thoughtful comments.
I’ll just say briefly that I think you are mischaracterizing what Sam has said and not said. He did not say that most Bishops ask most of the 29 questions. He does say that it is not uncommon for a Bishop to ask a kid if he or she masturbates.
Some Bishops never ask that question, however, MOST Bishops will ask “Do you obey the Law of Chastity?”
Even Sam did not realize until just a few weeks ago that “Do you obey the Law of Chastity?” IS A SEX QUESTION. Then I called it THE GATEWAY SEX QUESTION that can easily lead to more explicit sex questions.
For me personally, I don’t think it’s a good idea for adolescents to have sex with each other. They should be encouraged to save that until they are old enough to be responsible for the consequences of their choices. I personally did not have sex before marriage.
I do sincerely believe that sex-shaming anyone for masturbating is just plain psychological abuse. And if it’s a minor, then it’s child abuse.
If you want to share, Rob, I am curious about your own view of whether masturbation is a moral sin.
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The Church is definitely on that wide and broad way that leads to destruction. What’s important is that you stick to the strait and narrow that leads to everlasting life. Trust in your Lord Yeshua (Jesus). Believe and obey your Blessed Father in Heaven. Cling to the Word of God (primarily found in the Bible), and never let go of it. Go out into all the world and make disciples of Yeshua.
That is your responsibility—the responsibility given to all true believers in the Messiah.
The Church… they are “blind leaders of the blind—and when the blind lead the blind, both fall into the ditch.”
What has happened to you has happened to many others, including myself about 18 months ago. I encourage you to not allow their actions to poison your soul and embitter your heart, but please trust in your Lord and your Heavenly Father, come to know Them, and work to bring others to know Them, too.
Thank you and Shalom (peace)!
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Gary,
Masturbation and the thoughts or actions that go along with it is morally wrong. Now, on the scale of morally wrong it may not be anywhere close to others like cheating on ones spouse but nevertheless it is still a lack of self control and the sin is manifest in the bad thoughts and actions associated with it. The problem with masturbation and youth is that it is often associated with pornography or other immoral thoughts. Experimentation is natural in some degree. But there is a point where one very easily slips into immorality and it then dominates their life.
Obeying the law of chastity deals with sexual morality. It’s not sex shaming to ask youth or discuss with youth the proper morals of God’s laws dealing with sexual purity. All of these liberal feminist words and terms they come up with corrupt the purity of morality.
Talking to youth about proper sexual relations is not psychological abuse.
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Robert,
I do appreciate your clarity … leaving little room for speculation on my end.
While I respect your right to your opinion re masturbation, I see your all-or-nothing aka black-and-white characterization of masturbation as immoral and banned by God as evil/unacceptable behavior as not only COMPLETELY WRONG but also NONTRIVIALLY DESTRUCTIVE TO YOUTH -AND- ADULTS.
I will leverage your choice of words to express myself:
“Masturbation and the thoughts or actions that go along with self-pleasuring are natural human behaviors that have been characterized by so-called (for your benefit, Robert) experts as actually healthy in moderation and in balance with other healthy activities … and harming no one when done in private and with respect for boundaries of others.”
I do agree that masturbation done excessively is not a good idea. Neither is running obsessively until your knees give out. Or watching conference talks instead of cleaning your house. Or turning ownership and control of your personal moral compass over to the Salt Lake City Total Abstinence League.
Here is the CORE DEFECT in your position on masturbation, Robert.
ABSTINENCE DOES NOT WORK BECAUSE IT IS AN IRRATIONAL DENIAL OF THE NATURAL HUMAN SEX DRIVE.
Bishop sex-shaming of LDS kids (and adults) DOES NOT WORK (in most cases) to stop masturbation, Robert. While some people do manage long-term abstinence, it is the exception to the rule.
MOST OF THOSE WHO “PASS” THEIR WORTHINESS INTERVIEWS DO SO BY LYING TO THE BISHOP.
Why, Robert?
Is it because living with knowledge that you are a LIAR is less painful than living with the knowledge that YOUR BISHOP KNOWS knows what an unworthy, immoral, filthy, evil, unrighteous, vile sinner you are in real life.
Contrast thiat scenario with how Mormons (young and old) would feel if their Bishop told them, “Don’t worry about masturbation as long as you are discrete and you keep it in balance with your other activities. Nearly everyone masturbates. I even masturbate myself sometimes, even though I am married and love my wife. Totally relying on another person for satisfying 100% of your natural drive to experience sexual pleasure is not only stupid, but places unwanted pressure on that person. It is preferable to cut everyone some sexual slack and just take care of yourself, enjoy the moment, and then resume your life as usual. No big deal. And one more thing: Abstaining from experiencing that God-given pleasure trip of a few seconds of naturally generated ecstasy … until you are married in the temple …. is one of the worst things you can do to yourself. A chronically denied, natural sex drive can literally drive you nuts … to the extent that you will marry the first person who says Hello and sports the right equipment to get you off after you two leave the temple … finally at long last.
Enough of my diatribe.
Puritanical Sexual Mores are destructive, Robert. Always have been. Always will be.
There is an asssociation of Mormon Mental Health Professionals who totally agree with me and see the sex-shaming dished out by The Brethren as harmful and destructive … not only for Mormon youth, but for “happily married” monogamous couples as well.
Years ago during my eternal temple marriage (eternal until 1991), I did not know how to deal with my rage-a-hoilic eternal companion physically attacking me on a regular basis. My Bishop did not know how to help me, so he referred me to a Mormon mental health professional. During my first visit, I described the physical violence happening under my roof and that I needed help to make her stop beating the crap out of me. I had been sleeping on the floor in the spare bedroom. I confessed to my new LDS therapist that despite my best efforts at abstinence and moral behavior, I occasionally caved in and succumbed to my drive to feel that sexual pleasure once again … even though I knew it was wrong and a sin against God, and my eternal companion, and to myself. After I masturbated into a sock, my heart sank under the guilt and shame that I had failed yet again … one more time … to keep myself morally clean. What a PIECE OF SHIT AM I.
What was my LDS therapists advice for me?
(I swear on a stack of Books of Mormon … in every language … that I am not making this up.)
My LDS mental health professional told me that my wife beating me up was God punishing me for masturbating.
Robert, I will presume that you agree with my LDS therapist. Am I correct?
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