A story from a friend.
It was the mid 80’s. I had already suffered 2 miscarriages. This was devastating to me. I wanted to be a mother more than anything in the world. I came from a large family. I was taught that this was my destiny as a woman in the church. It killed me a little bit when I would see a woman yelling at her kids in the grocery store.
I remember laying on the floor in the living room of our modest 2 bedroom apartment. We had painted the second room baby blue, in hopes of having a boy. I was having symptoms of another miscarriage, spotting and cramps. My husband brought in 2 male members of our ward. I was given a blessing of health and that “everything would turn out right.”
Later that night, I went into full labor and delivered a baby that fit into my husband’s hand. He said that it was deformed. That is something that I can thank him for, he did not allow me to see my baby. I would have had nightmares. He buried it in the flower garden outside of our apartment.
At our next temple recommend interviews, the bishop asked if I kept the law of Chastity. I answered yes, because I had only had sex with my husband within the bounds of marriage. My husband told me later that he had confessed to the bishop that we had tried oral sex. The bishop told my husband that we were evil and that the miscarriage was due to breaking the law of chastity.
After that, I descended into a deep depression. My feelings of worthlessness were overwhelming. My self esteem was zero. It was late summer, I remember canning corn. As I cut the corn off the cobs, I was thinking that, if I am not worthy and good enough to be a mother, I must not be worthy to eat. From that time forward, I just existed in what I called a “zombie” state. My world had so much pain that I felt nothing. I equated the feeling of being hungry with a positive state of being. At my thinnest, I was 105 pounds which was really thin for a tall female.
It has been years, since this time period in my life. Recently, a friend traveled to the city where this happened. Memories of the past came flooding back. I used google maps to find the my apartment. It was still there, but the flower garden wasn’t. I have different beliefs now, but it still pains me to know that the body of the baby I called Jonathan is under a parking lot now.
I still struggle with eating and food. Sometimes I horde food, sometimes I will only eat when I am with someone. When I am sick I fall back into the same physical feeling, I have to force myself to eat. I have been to see several therapists, but not one that understands the culture of guilt and shame that is perpetrated by the Mormon church. I hope and wish that all that have endured spiritual abuse by the hands of the church will find peace and healing.
“Guilt and shame that is perpetrated by the Mormon church“
There was a time that I viewed a lay clergy as an advantage. Today, I see it very differently. Having untrained clergy is an advantage only to the financial health of the LDS Corporation, saving it millions of dollars every year.
It is a huge disadvantage to members who need professional pastoral guidance and understanding. Instead, they are often subjected to uninformed, clumsy and dangerous counsel. In this case, it was devastating. Blaming a miscarriage on oral sex? Heinous on the bishop’s part and resulting in decades of depression and disorders.
Although the woman in the story was an adult, here is how she described her immature state of development way back when: “I was basically a child as far as education. I Knew nothing of normal sexual interaction.”
What the Mormon church so often does to both its children and adults is gut-wrenching and preventable. It’s time that either the church change its ways or the members stand up and protect themselves.
Please join us in our 2019 campaign to Protect Every Child. More information will be rolled out in the coming weeks.
On New Year’s Day, our very first banner will be unfurled high on a mountain top.
Tocubit Is Invisible's Cubit 
Each one of us choose how to react. We can choose to blame others and slog along through life with hatred boiling in our veins. Or, we can choose to be optimistic and forgiving.
I always ask “what would Christ do?” It’s simple, if we are filled with charity- the pure love of Christ we will always find optimistic outcomes.
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So this bishops counsel has your stamp of approval? A man speaking for God telling a vulnerable young woman that her miscarriage was due to oral sex? The bishop’s counsel was horrendous. You give him a pass and blame the victim for choosing to react with decades of depression. I call on the church to repent of subjecting it’s members to this inanity. I’ll be happy to forgive the institution once they change their ways.
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That’s not what he said. You put words in his mouth and made assumptions. But that’s your MO.
Oh and so much for your campaign change. Your first post since you’re charged, attack the LDS Church.
You will never change. Sad.
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So, do you applaud this bishop for what he told this young woman?
BTW, in the news conference I specifically said that I would continue to use the Mormon church as the poster child for unsafe policies for child protection. I do not condone any religious leader telling an already traumatized young woman that her child died because of oral sex. Nope. I condemn it. And I hope that this woman’s healing will be hastened by seeing someone publicly calling out this damaging behavior by a bishop.
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Sam,
I totally agree with you.
What she experienced was traumatic and abusive.
Seriously?! What would Christ do? Last I checked Jesus never mentioned killing unborn babies because of a blow job. Was the oral sex before or after she had that sinister cup of coffee?
What condesending drivel. Should she also paste a fake smile on her face? I had the misfortune of living in Layton Utah for a year and experienced the arrogance and inauthenticy of many of the Mormons. By the way Utah has the highest rate of plastic surgery in the US. Mormon women getting breast implants and face lifts while touting their ” Modest is hottest” hypocrisy. They pride themselves on being incubaters and conforming . I feel sorry for anyone raised as a Mormon esp girls.
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You won’t forgive them, you hate them.
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Sam, I have a thought about the difference between the childhood harm and adult harm as a Mormon woman behind closed doors with a harmful bishop. We tend to separate out children, as being harmed in a worse way, and they are. But adult Mormon women, leave their adult status at the door when it closes in that bishop’s office. He is a man who is not her equal, but one who has special power from God. It places women in a parent/child interaction. Not an adult/adult interaction. It leaves her vulnerable to damage while she is in that child mindset. I’ve seen so many adult women go to their bishop for help with every decision. Especially the single women. We are taught that men have the power in the church. A bishop has even more power as the “Judge in Israel”. My point is, women in the church, though technically adults, can’t really be adults in these interactions because they aren’t given “adult” status. They aren’t treated as equals who’s wisdom is as valuable as the bishop (maybe moreso). The bishop holds the power of their very worth in his hands. His method of “parenting” can have the same impact on a woman, as if she was still a child. I believe the damage done is so much worse because of this child position a woman is placed in at that door.
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Great point my friend.
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Dear FC,
Thank you for including adults within the circle of those potentially affected by Bishop worthiness interviews.
Truth be told, the Church hierarchy of “authority” puts EVERYONE in a child-parent relationship with their superior. This dynamic effectively prevents EVERYONE from fully growing up and becoming autonomous adults … when your choices and behaviors are subject to scrutiny, evaluation and sanctions by your Judge in Israel.
I like this metaphor that was revealed to me through the instrumentality of the Holy Ghost, in whom I am well pleased for enlightening my understanding thusly:
Being an active Mormon is like living in your Mom’s basement your entire life … never experiencing what it’s like to make your own decisions and live with the consequences … good or bad … happy or sad. You are always subject to what your Mom thinks is best for you … and even have privileges withdrawn when you displease Mom. If you want to know how you are doing … if you are worthy … you have to ask Mom. Your own opinion of yourself does not matter. Mom tells you what kind of clothes to wear and not wear … what to eat and not eat … what to drink and not drink … what to read and not read … what entertainment to watch or not watch … what kinds of people to befriend or reject … what kind of person to date, to love, to marry … EVERYTHING is subject to Mom’s approval. And Mom does not negotiate. Whatever Mom thinks … is the Law. Your opinion does not matter whatsoever.
The only remedy and solution to this unfortunate Life Sentence in Mom’s Basement is …
… drum roll …
Move out and get your own place … and in the process … take your own Life back.
Mom will say you moved out because you want to sin.
Thanks, Mom.
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Very nice metaphor, Gary.
Could you also consider “moving out” to equate to moving out of the false mindset that the Brethren are “over” you and into a mindset where you are EQUALS under God?
You could go to church wherever with this mindset.
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Jesus for sure would not react like this bishop. Bishop falls way short from Jesus’s love and compassion. You might want to look into that.
We all choose to respond or to react, true. We also chose what words to use and share with others in order to represent Jesus and what He freely gave us.
This lady did not chose to go through life with hatred boiling in her veins. This lady was made to feel ashamed and guilty for something the bishop did not have enough knowledge to advise about. She was going to go through life with shame and guilt not hatred.
Things are clear looking from the outside. Only those on the inside still see these kinds of things as acceptable. That can only happen when the members chose to focus only and blindly on their leaders. Those take #1 priority even away from the most wonderful news (gospel) that is Jesus Christ.
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Wow Jeanny, that was great.
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What would Christ do? I think he would have cried with this woman. This kind of loss is devastating. This kind of trauma is not something you just wisk away so easily. Feeling hurt and betrayed is a valid emotion that she is allowed to feel.
Christ was ahead of his time, not behind it. He stood against injustice and hate. He offered comfort to those who stood in need of it. He healed. He loved. He spent a good deal of his time with the sinners and never made them feel ashamed. He showed them that they had worth and value. I would think that if he was really at the head of this church, it would do the same.
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This is an immature answer. Despite what people tell you, we can’t always choose how we feel and react. It depends on who you are, what kind of temperament you are born with (yes that is one of the personality traits, you are born with). Also you can control your reaction until a certain point. Let me liken it to going in to a gym. You pick up a 2kg dumbbell and you wave it around in full control. You now pick up 5 kg, you are still in control but it’s harder. 10kg. You now start to get a little wobbly. 20kg you are starting to lose control but you can still manage. 30 kg. You can just pick it up, but as you do so you lose control and strain a muscle. We all have different levels of strength and that goes for psychological strength too. Now try to imagine that you don’t puck up the weight. Imagine that the person training you, the person you trust to do what’s best for you. Imagine that he throws the weight at you. You won’t be able to control the same amount of weight, you will be harmed by the 10kg. Now you have the scenario that this woman went into. Now handling your emotions and reaction is not that easy. I could handle it after a while. I wouldn’t be in emotional hell for that long. But that is me, it’s one of my strengths. But I don’t judge others for not having it, I have other weaknesses and I hope I won’t be judged for those either.
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Excellent metaphor, Dan!
Good time to trot out one of my personal maxims:
Never (as in not ever) accept incoming messaging at face value. Before you let the message into your psyche, calibrate the sender source. If the sender is a high consciousness being with some measure of spiritual maturation, then maybe let the message in. If the sender is a low consciousness, brainwashed Morgbot programmed by the SLCSDS (Salt Lake City Spiritual Dwarf Society) … then take the message and turn it upside down before letting it in.
An example might help: If someone calls you an Asshole … and they themselves are an Asshole … then you can consider that message as a compliment, as in, “I see that you are just like me!”
That’s dumbass, but you get my drift. Flip “unworthy” to “born worthy”… etc.
Here is tool to use during Bishop worthiness interviews: Just pretend the Bishop’s Office is a sandbox and the Bishop is five years old … and just called you a Purple People Eater.
That is the appropriate level of credibility to extend to the Bishop if he dishes you a nice helping of Guilt and Shame.
I have a childhood memory of a grade-school classmate calling me a Purple People Eater after we got off the bus and were walking towards home. Fortunately, I did not believe the insult. I was clearly not Purple, and had yet to eat a people.
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Robert, I will respond to your post as a very active member of the Church.
While it is true that it falls on each person to pursue his or her mental and emotional health, your response completely ignores the Church’s role and responsibility for the false and damaging counsel given here. For an institution not to acknowledge and take ownership of the harm caused in this and many other cases is frankly reckless and irresponsible. In this post I will describe what the Church needs to do that it is not doing, and how you and I can help people like this woman. Robert, I ask you to read this entire post, as it contains an invitation for you at the end.
When a bishop or stake president is called, there should be a transition period during which he receives formal mandatory education on difficult and sensitive issues. Importantly, he should be taught to recognize when he is out of his league when it comes to counseling. These situations may include marital problems such as infidelity or infertility, physical and sexual abuse, sexual development and orientation, etc. He should be educated in what to say and what not to say, and should become well versed in the consequences of ill-advised counsel. Currently the Church’s preparation for leaders is horribly inadequate in this regard. The stories that Sam has collected have helped us to see this more clearly. As I said above, this lack of action is reckless and irresponsible.
Robert, I am a physician. One of the most important things I do is to recognize when my patient’s problem is outside my scope of expertise. I then refer that patient to a subspecialist. To pretend that I know enough to deal with the problem can be dangerous to the patient, and can land me in court. Although as a practitioner I have never been there, a malpractice trial is truly hell for both plaintiff and defendant. Our system is designed to protect the public from incompetent physicians. Ignorance of medical knowledge is never an excuse, and the system holds us doctors entirely accountable, even for things that we don’t know. For that reason we take steps to recognize our own limitations. No such accountability exists for church leaders. The reality is that if I practiced medicine like Church leaders practice couseling, I would have lost my license a long time ago. In my world, this kind of lack of responsibility just doesn’t fly, and it is recognized for the travesty that it is.
When an individual is harmed by an institution, that individual may feel some measure of closure when the insitution recognizes the harm done and takes steps to prevent it from happening again. This gives the person a sense of validation that can be extremely helpful in moving forward with his or her life. Conversely, when the institution ignores the harm, the person typically feels even more deeply wounded. Thus, institutions play a key role in either faciliting or impeding that person’s recovery. Likewise, the reactions of individuals like you and me to that person’s situation may have a significant impact on their recovery.
Robert, I have no doubt that this woman has read your post, which was the first to appear in the thread. Just as many bishops don’t understand the harm that their words can have, I suspect that you didn’t realize how your words have likely wounded this woman. I would respectfully invite you to be very mindful of what you post, and how it may hurt those reading. I would likewise invite you to consider posting a message of empathy for this woman, and even an apology if you see fit. In this way you could help to reduce her pain and help her healing. What a marvelous and moving thing that would be!
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Like I said, we can choose how we react. What did Christ do when he was mocked, spit upon, ridiculed and scorned? He said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Christ’s counsel to us is to not use sharp rebuke but to turn the other cheek. We are going to find people who harm others with their words in all walks of life and professions.
I used to go to professional counseling when I was in my youth. Apparently many thought I had some serious problems. Maybe I did, who knows. Even with “trained” professionals you get the same. I didn’t get along with certain counselors. How is that different than a bishop one doesn’t see eye to eye with? We can’t always control what others do and say but we can control and choose what we do and say.
What would Christ do? Look no further than what Christ said and did- “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
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Christ said that to those who crucified HIM. He didn’t say the same to those who harm children. He said that it would be better that they be hung with a millstone and cast into the sea to drown. Never did he say to turn a blind eye when we see someone being harmed. He condemned those who were not the Good Samaritan. He condemned those who didn’t minister to the least of these. I believe in a Jesus of action and compassion towards the downtrodden.
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WOW!! I JUST finished reading some of Leah Remini’s remarks about Scientology and almost word for word, she said they say exactly what YOU just said. They blame people for what happens to them and their thoughts about it as well. They have no compassion, just like you, for the hurting, the broken. They judge and shame people for needing the justice and validation that all people need. What would Jesus do? He would sit with his arms around this woman and weep with her. That’s what. You know how I know that? Because Jesus said “God is love…” and love is patient, kind etc. I know what love is when I receive it. I know love when I give it. It’s a beautiful thing. Job’s friends keep telling him his grief is sin. They tell him if he’d just do the right thing, it would be “simple.” Job had been a good, generous man in his life, and yet here he was, suffering repeated losses. And his friends kept saying …well…almost exactly what you are saying. I LOVE Job’s story, because like him and others, I have suffered many intolerable things in life, am still in the grieving process,will never be able to get back what was taken from me, still need validation, still have received no justice, still try to give my children a good life though it is with so very few resources. For decades, I heard only your words accuse me of not being Christlike because I was hurting and suffering because of what others had done to me. In the story of Job, God speaks to Job and basically says, you can’t understand everything I’m doing. But then he speaks to Job’s friends, and he reprimands them, tells them how wrong they are, tells them to apologize to Job etc. Job’s friends were not good friends. God said it.
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So Robert, Let’s say you get in a bad car wreck. Your neck is broken. You can’t walk. You can barely speak. You work with all you have to make your legs work again. It’s slow, arduous work. It takes support from physical therapists that you sometimes can’t afford, so you don’t get them. Your neck heals a little off center, leaving pinched nerves and constant pain. You get up every morning and fight, you fight hard to not give up. You suffer the loss of everything you cared about. All of your dreams of taking your kids skiing. Your ability to support your family. All gone. You get the cheapest wheelchair, it’s all you can afford. People mock you for using foodstamps. You slowly progress, but never fast enough to stop life from passing you by. Then somebody says, “he’d be able to walk by now if he had a better attitude.” “He’d be doing far better if he had more faith in Christ.” You cry, nearly every day, in pain. Then your best friend says one day, “Enough! You are choosing to feel this way! You are choosing to stay in self pity! You just want attention!” And your last friend walks out the door. And in your heart, you KNOW you are giving ALL you have because everything you care about is on the line. To have your character in question on top of everything else is the last straw. Then to be told you just are not doing what Jesus would do if he were in your shoes, breaks the straw. Choose how to react Robert. Keep thinking you have all power. Because this is a physical example, but mental and emotional damage is just as REAL. Just as CRIPPLING. Ever hear of Stockholm Syndrome? That’s SCIENCE. Ever hear of PTSD? Also REAL. What about plain old indoctrination? Ever tried to break the code in your brain from being raised a Scientologist? A Mormon who was told they were “unworthy” at church while they were being raped at home? These are REAL and disabling in a person’s life. Please, for the love of God, stop judging people who can’t rise and walk because you think it’s easy if you whistle a happy tune!
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Like I have said, we choose how to react. Let me give example of my own youth. When I was a youth at age 11-12 I basically had no friends, everyone made fun of me. During those years I lived in the suburbs of Salt Lake City. My mother got sick and our whole world got disrupted. I found acceptance in those who did drugs and smoked, drank, swore, etc. And so I joined. I chose how to react. I have two brothers. One chose the way I chose and the other chose to follow Christ. During those years that I fell away from the church I found ways to blame all of my troubles on the church and it’s members. Oh how I hated my religion, hated church and all it’s hypocrisy. That’s a lot of what I see in here- a lot of hate and not much forgiveness. I see a lot of unChrist feelings and posts.
I have since repented of my hate and learned to look past others weaknesses and harshness. You will find these problems in any and all organizations. I’m in no way advocating the protection of a bishop or anyone for the mistakes they may do. What I am suggesting though is that we learn to stop having so much hatred towards a system that does do good. One bad Apple doesn’t mean the whole bushel is rotten. Sam’s campaign isn’t to expose a bad Apple, he is about saying the whole bushel is rotten. His hatred for the members of Christ’s church is not productive. He had chosen to react negatively to fight something he isn’t going to win. The church isn’t going to change because of Sam nor his campaign. This is merely a smear campaign on the church and it’s members of the which he once was.
There are much better and productive Christlike ways to combat against sexual predators. This isn’t a good reaction for Sam, it doesn’t end well for him nor his followers.
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Robert, I’m very happy that you chose the path of Christ. I think that for both of us it has made the world of difference.
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You can forgive the Bishop Robert but that only says that he did something wrong in the first place. If you need to forgive someone that means that person did something wrong to begin with. All Sam is asking is they change their policy so this sort of thing doesn’t happen anymore, to prevent further instances of shaming and guilt tripping youth or adults. This sort of BS happens all the time, it’s time for a change Robert. If something is not working fix it, it hasn’t worked, get rid of worthiness interviews and let God take care of that in the afterlife. In the scriptures in says judge not that ye be not judged. Bishop is not Jesus, he is a fallable human being just like everyone else ,who is he to judge and make assessment of an individual.
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Robert says, “You will find these problems in any and all organizations.” Yes, but not all orgs claim to speak for the Lord, do they? Thus, the leaders who claim to speak for the Lord open themselves up to scrutiny, and rightly so, wouldn’t you say? They SHOULD BE held accountable to a different and higher standard, than say, the Boy Scouts or any Protestant church, agreed?
Robert ironically is a victim of LDS Inc. gaslighting propaganda which, by definition, incessantly teaches that Christ and the institution are one. This is the great deception, wittingly or unwittingly done, in the Church. Robert probably isn’t able to comprehend even the words I’m writing. Stated plainly, the Church leaders teach falsley that the Lord equals the institution. Meaning, there is no salvation without the institution. Meaning all things the Brethren say are sacrosanct, and above criticism or questioning.
Since Robert and all mainstream Mormons accept this as absolute truth, even though it’s gross idolatry and antiChrist at its core, therefore there is no choice but to conclude that the error in this scenario (miscarriage due to oral sex) resides not with the bishop (a carefully-crafted product of the institution) but with the woman who rightly identifies the error.
That’s why Robert displays confused logic here. His cognitive dissonance causes him to defend the institution by labeling Sam’s work and the victim’s report as hate speech:
“I’m in no way advocating the protection of a bishop or anyone for the mistakes they may do. What I am suggesting though is that we learn to stop having so much hatred towards a system that does do good. One bad Apple doesn’t mean the whole bushel is rotten (the institution can’t be wrong!). Sam’s campaign isn’t to expose a bad Apple, he is about saying the whole bushel is rotten (how dare him question the institution!!). His hatred for the members of Christ’s church (his critical thinking) is not productive. He had chosen to react negatively to fight something he isn’t going to win (for how can you win if you’re fighting the Lord?!). The church isn’t going to change (because the Institution and it’s divine policies are perfect!) because of Sam nor his campaign. This is merely a smear campaign….”
Robert claims pointing out error and bad policy is “hatred”. If you can’t debate on principle, then name call.
You see, there can be no fault with the institution because the institution IS the Lord. Sam speaks blasphemy, in Robert’s worldview, because obviously the Lord can’t be wrong. There HAS TO BE some explanation that makes Sam’s observation wrong while excusing the institution. THIS is the idolatry of Robert. “Don’t attack my god”, Robert says in his heart.
Robert believes the Church isn’t going to change, but dear Robert, it (policy) has ALREADY changed since Sam has raised awareness! And it WILL change further. It’s not that the prideful want to change for the better, but they will be compelled to change by lawsuits that no doubt are well underway.
The issue, the whole reason for the conflict, is that the pride of the leadership (Isa 28:1) refuses to let a lowly and former bishop call them to repentance! “Learn your place in the hierarchy, boy!!”, is the message the Brethren want understood by “ye Elders of Israel”. WE dictate, not you peons. And the entire house of cards rests on one insidious heresy that must be propped up at all costs: the institution = the Lord = the Brethren! Google “Ronald E. Poelman 1984 talk” as evidence of this effort to brainwash the membership.
Once a member of the Church realizes this is a Satanic lie (wittingly or unwittingly), then he is able to finally critically think and worship the Lord in truth. He rightly abandons his idolatry and can then easily see policy and tradition that is out of harmony with the Gospel. He can then view the leaders in a correct light, which is that they are fallible human beings. He can then spot priestcraft a mile away. He can then finally understand why the Lord commands to not use His name in vanity, i.e., to not pretend to speak His will when it’s merely a precept of man! He can then allow the warnings of the BoM to warn him, as the warnings apply to us Gentile LDS!
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Dear Helaman13v26 aka
“26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.”
Your eloquent post was delicious to read and contemplate. Truth spoken is music to the unobstructed ear and undefiled heart … while simultaneously a bitter pill to be spat out onto the ground with disgust by those who are offended by truth and find themselves reflexively auto-compelled to lash out against it.
One sentence resonated … echoing my thought about Robert just yesterday:
“Robert probably isn’t able to comprehend even the words I’m writing. ”
Engaging Robert in thoughtful debate has proven repeatedly on Sam’s blog to be a nonstarter. Actually, that’s an erroneous black and white statement. Robert’s rhetoric does contain the occasional gem of rational thought. I think the best thing Robert has written so far (my paraphrase) is to confess that his personal view of heaven and hell is different from Gospel Doctrine … and Robert believes HE is correct … NOT the Church.
So … Robert has confessed on this blog he does not personally believe the Church is true … yet he defends it unswervingly in the modus operandi you so clearly dissected for us, H13v26.
I have equated the b.i.c. born-in-correlation TBM brain as exhibiting Drain Bamage with the symptom being chronic CPD cognitive processing deficit. There exists in the TBM brain a “hardwired” information switch (expertly installed by The Brethren into TBMs beginning at birth … if not in the womb as Fetus is being forced to endure sacrament meetings trapped inside Mom) … (I digress) … a switch that automatically and instantly detects “non-faith-promoting” incoming information … and routes it away from where information ordinarily goes for thoughtful consideration. When this event occurs, an auto-response is activated … which we see Robert performing on cue over and over. It’s what you wrote, H13v26 … way more accurately than I could ever describe it myself.
I applaud you for the crystal clarity with which you have launched our Happy New Year.
You have delivered a Pearl of Great Price. It feels nice to tap the Mormon Lexicon on occasion … and place labels where they belong … for a change.
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Part 1
Robert says, “You will find these problems in any and all organizations.” Yes, but not all orgs claim to speak for the Lord, do they? Thus, the leaders who claim to speak for the Lord open themselves up to scrutiny, and rightly so, wouldn’t you say? They SHOULD BE held accountable to a different and higher standard, than say, the Boy Scouts or any Protestant church, agreed?
Robert ironically is a victim of LDS Inc. gaslighting propaganda which, by definition, incessantly teaches that Christ and the institution are one. This is the great deception, wittingly or unwittingly done, in the Church. Robert probably isn’t able to comprehend even the words I’m writing. Stated plainly, the Church leaders teach falsley that the Lord equals the institution. Meaning, there is no salvation without the institution. Meaning all things the Brethren say are sacrosanct, and above criticism or questioning.
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Part 2
Since Robert and all mainstream Mormons accept this as absolute truth, even though it’s gross idolatry and antiChrist at its core, therefore there is no choice but to conclude that the error in this scenario (miscarriage due to oral sex) resides not with the bishop (a carefully-crafted product of the institution) but with the woman who rightly identifies the error.
That’s why Robert displays confused logic here. His cognitive dissonance causes him to defend the institution by labeling Sam’s work and the victim’s report as hate speech:
“I’m in no way advocating the protection of a bishop or anyone for the mistakes they may do. What I am suggesting though is that we learn to stop having so much hatred towards a system that does do good. One bad Apple doesn’t mean the whole bushel is rotten (the institution can’t be wrong!). Sam’s campaign isn’t to expose a bad Apple, he is about saying the whole bushel is rotten (how dare him question the institution!!). His hatred for the members of Christ’s church (his critical thinking) is not productive. He had chosen to react negatively to fight something he isn’t going to win (for how can you win if you’re fighting the Lord?!). The church isn’t going to change (because the Institution and it’s divine policies are perfect!) because of Sam nor his campaign. This is merely a smear campaign….”
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Part 3 of 3
Robert claims pointing out error and bad policy is “hatred”. If you can’t debate on principle, then name call.
You see, there can be no fault with the institution because the institution IS the Lord. Sam speaks blasphemy, in Robert’s worldview, because obviously the Lord can’t be wrong. There HAS TO BE some explanation that makes Sam’s observation wrong while excusing the institution. THIS is the idolatry of Robert. “Don’t attack my god”, Robert says in his heart.
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I had a sister-in-law blame my supposed sinful life for the fact that I hadn’t conceived. It devastated me!
BTW…I was temple married, a RM and a virgin at the time of marriage. I also attended all meetings, paid a full tithe and kept the W.o.W.
It’s gut wrenching to have someone (let alone a “mouth piece of God”) say that to you when you can see crack whores, child abusers and criminals reproducing like crazy!! Yet God sees me (and this woman) as less than those people?!
I mean…He MUST if having children is a sign of worthiness!!
I’m sorry for what she went through! I know that pain all too well.
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So sorry for that inconsiderate comment from a family member. Thanks for weighing on this important topic.
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I’ve been out for years now, but this brings up so many memories. My first wife (still a member) was one of the more “righteous” Mormons in her family as was one of her aunts. Both we and her aunt had children with disabilities. My then less-active MIL, commented that I served us all right for being so righteous. It was God’s way of keeping us overly righteous folks humble. I will have to say that despite being raised in the church (all I knew for 40 years) I do not miss the CULTural things like this.
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Sam, you could probably match the children’s worthiness interview stories 1:1 with stories from adults who have been abused this way by their unpaid ecclesiastical leaders. Whether that bishop’s response was intentionally hateful (or maybe he was “just” parroting the same b.s. he had been told by some other higher-up), the harm was done, and continues to be done because the church encourages and enables it. You’re right – Jesus would NOT have responded this way. Please keep calling them out, Sam. Maybe some day, if enough people make enough noise, the church will actually start to demonstrate the same values as the divine person they claim to represent.
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To Jim
How is this an attack? This is criticism for sure. This is a call for change yes. Don’t equate the two, they are not the same. But if criticising is equal to an attack for you, then it is the right thing to do. 🎵Stand for what is right and let the consequences follow🎶
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The fact is that neither the lay clergy nor the general membership are fed with the bread of life. They think they know the scriptures, but they only know them like a scholar, and not by the edification of the Holy Spirit. Mormon leaders are too busy following handbooks and being yes-men to follow the Spirit, however; and the abused members are too busy trying to sustain their leaders to receive all things by the Spirit. A world of pain could be avoided if they would all just follow the Spirit of God instead of the arm of flesh, though.
For example …
Jesus was asked if a certain blind man was blind on account of his own sin or the sin of his parents. Jesus responded that both presumptions were false, and that neither he nor his parents had caused the blindness by some sin or other of their own. Now let’s liken this wisdom to our own situation. To say that some people are black because they were not valiant in a pre-mortal setting (which used to be taught in the Mormon Church not that long ago), or that a woman’s pregnancy could end in a miscarriage because of some alleged sin, is contrary to the teachings of our Lord in scripture. Neither the child, nor the parents did cause these things by some sin or other.
Search the words of eternal life. Feast on the milk and honey and bread of life. And privately rebuke any priesthood holder who exercises unwise and unrighteous dominion to invoke guilt and condemnation and penalty where none exists. Do all things by the Spirit. Teach by the Spirit. Counsel by the Spirit. And receive by the Spirit. For if ye have not the Spirit, ye shall not (indeed, cannot effectually) teach or counsel or do anything that is pleasing to God.
Amen.
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Also …
Sin is not determined by the outward appearance, but is based on access to law and a deliberate desire in our heart to break that law. Where there is no awareness of a law, sin is not imputed, but the mercies of the Holy One of Israel automatically intervene to justify and make cleansed. So if a law had been ignorantly broken, God would have had compassion at every moment along the way. However, the only law given of God related specifically to marital intimacy is to cleave to one another and none else. If the woman and her husband were being unselfish in the bedroom, then they weren’t sinning by expressing their love orally.
One can only imagine that the bishop coaxed such a gratuitous detail from the husband privately. The greater sin against the law of heaven, as Jesus said, is in forsaking mercy and brotherly kindness and judgment in favor of the weak. Therefore, the greater sin in the eyes of God is that of causing a young, tender woman to feel worthless.
A lay clergy that relies on handbooks and the wisdom of men instead of the Spirit of God and a true understanding of the scriptures is a train wreck waiting to happen in a thousand church houses every week. No wonder most people just lie during interviews when asked probing questions! How often has someone truly repented of their sins and been forgiven by God, only to be told by a leader that they are not forgiven by the Church Corporation until they’ve endured several months of shaming.
The point of confessing is to receive support; but the LDS system is tailored more toward denigration and tearing people down until all they want to do is kill themselves. Sadly, most are better off to stay out of harm’s way. This is not at all what the Lord commanded and intended when he said that the signs of true repentance include confessing and forsaking evil ways. This is corruption and apostasy by scriptural standards, honestly. And those that justify it neither know, nor adore the true Jesus.
Amen.
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Amen indeed. The single most unChristian practice in the Mormon church, is placing themselves between individuals and their God. The church teaches about a personal relationship with our creator and savior but steps in when they deem fit. This (to me) seems like only a ruse to maintain control by inserting public shaming into what should be a personal reconciliation. I agree that trained, compassionate leaders in the church would be a benefit, but that seems to be a roulette spin in most cases.
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WL JP.
Thank you for your uncommonly wise and beautifully eloquent thoughts on topic.
If the Church were led by thought leaders of your caliber, it would have half a chance of actually enhancing spiritual maturation of the members …. instead of stunting it.
The Church as now constituted is an egregiously toxic and Parasitic influence on the Host membership … upon which it feeds itself.
AMEN!
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Robert Osborn,
Is THAT the kind of compassion with which you “serve” the youth in your ward?
I feel embarrassed on your behalf … to have written and posted such a callous response to a heartfelt expression of deep pain and suffering.
I would hope you are kinder and more loving towards yourself than what you expressed towards the woman who was brave enough to share such a vulnerable glimpse into her life.
My own story (shared previously) did not involve my Bishop. It was an LDS mental health professional I consulted (on advice from my Bishop). The therapist heard my story and rendered his diagnosis. My sweet eternal companion was periodically beating the shit out of me as God’s punishment for my inability to successfully abstain from masturbation once every few months or so. (I actually paid money for this diagnosis.)
What a cheap shot when uninspired counterfeit pastoral counselors (Bishops, etc.) leverage human suffering as low hanging guilt-and-shame ammo to make someone already in pain feel evem more terrible about themselves.
===================
Just tonight I learned about a Catholic Priest who was excommunicated (defrocked) personally by the Pope (Benedict) for discovering what Jesus actually taught … as opposed to the transmogrified “Gospel” promulgated by the so-called Christian churches ever since. Dr. Micael Ledwith (ex-Priest) was just interviewed by James Gilliland on his internet radio show As You Wish Talk Radio … very much worth a listen if you are curious about a very radical perspective on what Jesus actually taught.
Micael Ledwith (say Meh-HALE… the Irish form of Michael) just published his book “Saving Jesus” … which sounds worth reading.
https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Jesus-Forbidden-Miceal-Ledwith/dp/0692973052/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1546157858&sr=1-1
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Hum…kind of interesting that this Michael guy was actually ousted from the Catholic Church for child sexual abuse.
I listened to some of the broadcast until they got into aliens and science fiction stuff. Sounds like the Michael Ledwith is quite the crackpot.
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Robert, thank you for the heads-up on Miceal connected with child sex abuse. My brother alerted me about that as well. Miceal says he was an advisor to the Pope and no stranger to the upper/inner circles. It would probably be challenging to find any Catholic general authorities who had NOT participated in pedophilia.
What resonated with me regarding what I heard Miceal saying was that Jesus came to empower humanity, not to enslave us with guilt and shame for being wretch-like-me sinners. I believe that Jesus’ core message was transmogrified nearly beyond recognition by the creators of the Christianity Humanity Enslavement … (my words).
Not to excuse Miceal if he harmed children … but it is a logical fallacy to either accept or reject an argument or position based solely on the reputation or infamy of the messenger.
“Sounds like Michael (sic) Ledwith is quite the crackpot.”
There you go, Robert. Ad hominem works every time … for non-critical thinkers … like most Mormons.
BTW, I am impressed that you listened to some of the broadcast. Just for the record, if you investigate without prejudgment, you will discover that we’ve had aliens among us on this planet throughout human history. During our lifetimes, the preponderance of evidence is incontrovertible, imo.
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I listened to the entire podcast. Many of Michael’s points resonated.
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Robert, in reply to your post earlier. I suppose you think of those who fought in WWII as being filled with hate and “choosing a bad response?” If everyone lays down, accepts abuse, and never raises a voice against it, it will continue. You accuse Sam and others of being driven by hate. Seeking to protect others from harm is NOT an act of hatred. Telling your story is not an act of hatred. Fighting to stop oppression and exploitation of self and others is not an act of hatred. I truly feel sorry for you if you think being silent in the face of abuse is the only choice you have.
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Gary,
I’m not sure why most antichristian (and yes, I think Michael is antichristian) people think that Christianity is a type of enslavement. Where does that come from? That’s not the Christ I know. And either Michael is a liar or he himself doesn’t know Christ and Christianity. The Christ I know is a healer, there to lift me up and set me free no matter what traps I get ensnared with.
BTW, I do believe in UFOs, just doing some research into his beliefs, he goes a wee bit overboard into being a crackpot. And being an ousted sexual abuser of children don’t help his case.
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Robert,
I appreciate your comments.
Here is where traditional Christianity takes a wrong turn and drives into the ditch … ultimately causing more harm than good.
What follows is my opinion, with the caveat that I don’t know anything for certain.
I believe each one of us made a free-will choice in the Spirit Realm to be born into the Human Condition on Planet Earth. We made this choice with full knowledge that Earth has a reputation for being one of the toughest schools in the Universe. We were given the opportunity to preview the basic playbook of how our next incarnation would unfold … including what kinds of tests and challenges we would be facing. With a very good idea of what we were signing up for (chosen from multiple options crafted and presented to us for our consideration by wiser spirit being advisors with more knowlege and experience), we agreed to take the plunge and eventually emerge as a crying infant … totally helpless and dependent on others … first for physical survival … and second for learning how to operate successfully as a human being interacting with everything Life has to offer. To make this school even more challenging, our memory of who we were before being born was wiped clean … forcing us to relearn virtually everything all over again … and very much subject to the belief system indoctrination of whoever was raising us and keeping us alive.
Surrounded by all kinds of influences and mindset programming, and with whatever kind of inner guidance or spiritual compass we managed to bring with us (nature vs nurture) we embark to play out that playbook we previewed before being born. At every turn, at every fork in the road, our free will was given the opportunity to make a choice … choose the next step. Sometimes we choose wisely and avoid unpleasant consequences of ill-advised behaviors. Other times, we choose unwisely and end up with an automatic learning experience to deal with. Our lives play out as a series of behavior choices … each one with natural consequences that follow, whether we choose what is right …. or hopefully next time.
Exercising our free will to choose a learning experience over a smoother ride ahead does not make us defective, Robert. If we were already spiritually mature enough to always choose the right, we would probably not even be returning to Earth for another semester of tests and challenges.
One of the most damaging travesties of Christianity is the concept of a Reward in Heaven awarded for good behavior by a Judge in Israel. This Santa Claus mentality keeps people in perpetual childhood as they live their lives with a reward or punishment belief system where the Rewards come from some external God figure whose good favor we must earn or suffer the consequences … again dished out by the Sky Daddy depending on whether we’ve been naughty or nice.
The other absurdity of Christianity is the concept that we must be “redeemed” by a Redeemer and have our “sins” washed away by a ritual of literal washing with water. And then after we’ve been washed, and we take a wrong turn yet again, we have to repent and be forgiven by the Redeemer or else the redeeming services will be withheld and our way to Heaven will be barred until we fulfill the requirements of the Redeemer at Heaven’s Gate.
What about the billions (that’s billions with a B) of human beings who chose to be born into a different religious belief system … or no religious belief system? What happens to them? Baptism for the dead? Really? What makes MY BELIEF SYSTEM trump everyone else’s belief system that they were born into? Why does EVERYONE have to BE LIKE ME before they will have any kind of decent existence in the Afterlife?
The Atonement is just pure BS if taken in a literal sense. Paying the price of my sins? Who is doing the accounting? The Silent Note Takers? Who is operating the PriceTag machine that sets the price of each sin? What about the Priests who would actually collect money for sin redemption services? Of course, that is stupid, right. OK, then. How, pray tell, is Tithing any different?
The “price” of my sins are the natural consequences of making unwise behavior choices. There is no accounting. There are Laws of Nature that automatically kick in when we make a behavior choice. It happens automatically without any “judging” required.
Just as there are laws of physics, like gravity and action/reaction, there are likewise natural laws that govern human behavior choices. When we take to heart what Jesus really DID teach and make conscious decisions to treat and respect others as we would appreciate being treated and respected if our roles were reversed, then Life can feel pretty good. The reward is natural and automatic … not dished out by the Game Show Host in the sky … whose earthly representatives literally SELL TICKETS to hopeful contestants.
One of the other most egregious mistakes of Christianity as we inherited it is the removal of the teaching of reincarnation. The crafters of Christianity realized that if we truly believe that we ONLY GET ONE CHANCE to get it right, that we will be far easier to control with FEAR of eternal damnation if we make a mistake. If we know that we get as many “do overs” as we need … to get it right … then the pressure is off and we can relax a bit more and take the time we need … to learn and grow at our own pace.
We came to earth to make mistakes … and then learn from them … until we ultimately grow into spiritual maturation and acquire the amazing and powerful ability to Love … and to Love consistently … and to Love powerfully.
THAT is what Jesus would do … and WHAT Jesus did.
He invites us to Follow Him and grow ourselves into the limitless potential that’s intrinsic to our Spiritual DNA. And we are invited again and again to attend school on Planet Earth as many times as it takes … to Graduate with Honors.
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Hey, Sam! I am impressed that you listened to the entire As You Wish Talk Radio program.
Just FYI, I discovered ECETI Ranch 4-1/2 years ago. It’s about a 4-hour drive to Trout Lake, Mt. Adams from home. I have attended the July conference every year since, and have always come away richer for the experience. Not only is the eclectic assortment of presenters very worthwhile, but the opportunity to rub shoulders with like-minded souls from all over the planet is just as worthwhile as the prepared presentations by various book authors and thought leaders in an alternative (non-mainstream) view of our human experience. I have made some lifelong friends at ECETI Ranch. I can’t recommend it enough … but I do advise TBMs to stay completely away! If you are TBM, you’ve got some serious work on your plate that’s gotta get done first.
The cornucopia of information that’s now available to everyone with an internet connection is amazing. Of course, discernment is required to separate the BS from the worthwhile … and none of us have that dialed in perfectly, seems to me. Having an open mind inevitably results in rabbit holes to nowhere at times, but the alternative of a closed mind that only lets correlated, pre-screened content in for consideration is spiritual death by comparison.
Contrary to popular belief, Spirit Prison does not happen after death. Spirit Prisons are successfully operating all around us as we speak. Most are fairly easy to identify. Their names usually have a Six Letter Word in there that starts with Ch and ends with urch.
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Gary,
Humm…sounds like you want the reward system too, just taking more time yo achieve it. When one properly understands Christianity, especially LDS beliefs, they realize that we have a long time, well beyond death, to work out our salvation and perfection. LDS doctrine isn’t a one chance to get it right doctrine. No one gains perfection in this short mortal experience.
Your beliefs are more in line with the devil’s carnal security plan where he ensnares people, lulls them into carnal bankruptcy, and chains their soul to the everlasting hell. Satan wants us to put off righteousness, wants us to say to ourselves “sin a little, you still have myriads of opportunity to change.” Then he slowly cheats your soul until it’s everlastingly too late because your heart hadn’t changed but has gone the opposite way.
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Robert,
Thanks again for sharing.
The only problem I have with LDS doctrine as you presented it … is that it flat out denies the reality that humans on Earth do indeed reincarnate. There exists a preponderance of evidence that cannot be reasonably explained by anything BUT reincarnation …. past lives of the same enduring soul entity. People (especially children) “remembering” details of another time and place they could not possibly otherwise know.
We may have exhausted this topic already … I don’t recall if it was with you or someone else. It is curious that most Eastern religions accept the idea of reincarnation.
Anyway, we can agree to disagree, Robert. Truth be told, there is no harm in being right or wrong about reincarnation. The idea that people “try harder” (my words) if they have only one lifetime on Earth doesn’t mean much. When tenured priesthood leaders commit egregious crimes against other members (sexual predation, financial fraud, etc.) … looks like they have no problem “sinning a little” (your words).
What you or I think about it does not alter reality. You might ask yourself why the Creator would come up with a Plan of Eternal Progression that fully 0.2% of the planet’s population is signed up for … and more than half of the signups never darken a chapel door on Sunday. And currently, thousands of true believers are waking up and discovering Joseph’s Myth and striking their names from the super special exclusive ZERO POINT TWO PERCENT CLUB.
I am glad you have a strong testimony, Robert. If everyone on Sam’s blog agreed with each other, then why would we bother?
One of my motivations for writing here is for the unseen readers who do not post. I think it’s a good thing for people to be exposed to a spectrum of ideas on any topic. The Brethren do not agree, by the way. Did you catch that, Robert? The Brethren do not agree. Their formula for success is to prevent … insofar as is (used to be) possible … the exposure of members to non-correlated information. That alone should tell you something. The Brethren have something to hide … and they have seriously lost their ability to keep on hiding it. Now they cleverly resort to a self-confessed strategy of “inoculation” (their word, not mine)…as damage control in this Information Age to allow curious members to be exposed to a whitewashed (reluctantly correlated) version of real Church history to prevent them from discovering it themselves and risk full frontal shocking exposure to the unwhitewashed version.
This is Mind Control Cult behavior, Robert. You choose to ignore the obvious attributes and behaviors that fully qualify the Church as a certifiable Mind Control Cult. When your mind is indeed under control, as yours seems to be, you are blinded by the brainwash. Brainwash REALLY DOES WORK … and it works extremely well. The well-washed brain simply cannot think uncorrelated thoughts. There may as well be physical stroke damage to selected information perception neuron structures in the brain. Same effect.
Ask yourself this question, Robert. If the Church is NOT a Mind Control Cult … then why on earth do The Brethren operate their empire as if it were … a Mind Control Cult?
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Robert,
I forgot one comment I wanted to make …
“Humm…sounds like you want the reward system too, just taking more time to achieve it.”
No.
You missed my point. In the LDS Reward System, the rewards are dispensed by the Redeemer when you get a high enough score at the Judgment Bar (and Grill). Kolob copulation/reproduction without number for winners …. or you get the grill if your score is not high enough.
We are ALWAYS a work in progress. The reward is every step of the journey. LDS doctrine paints a destination (Kolob) as the end game goal.
Robert, if you twist on this thread hard enough, you can attempt to neutralize what I am saying. Other readers will decide what makes sense to them.
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Gary, theres no proof of reincarnation. And what would be the point if we starting over and over again not knowing where we left off and where we are going?
Mind control? Really? Ive never been more free. I dont know what yo say. Ive bern on your side, I know, that side you are on entraps, enslaves, destoys.
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Thank you, Robert.
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Oh! My! God!! And I write these words, not as a sacrilege, but in horror and pain. This story is beyond heart-breaking. It is totally devastating. And the bishop’s response, his judgment, is beyond evil and comprehension. .
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If that’s indeed what the bishop said.
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What was said, reflected his/their value systems. He/They developed, under a culture, to impose, but not uphold, the value systems. The personal development, which was supposed to be devine, was damaged, within the culture.
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You are doing good work, Sam. Keep publicizing the damage that untrained clergy can do — to children and adults. We are very vulnerable when we seek religious and spiritual counseling. Those counselors should be trained — perhaps even licensed.
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Dear Ari,
I totally agree … and I will add an essential qualification for a decent, effective, helpful therapist …
NOT NOT NOT LDS!
I am sure there are competent LDS therapists out there, but to be competent, they must check their guilting, shaming belief system at the door when they go to work.
An “unchecked” LDS therapist has a good chance of only heaping more guilt and shame on the already suffering casualty of unpaid, untrained, mental health amateurs.
I experienced a destructive LDS therapist personally … and even PAID him to abuse my vulnerable psyche even more.
His malpractice turned out to be a blessing in disguise. The uselessness of the Mormon Church to offer me nondestructive counsel to deal with my increasingly violent eternal companion made it way easier for me to take my life back. Leaving the Church was the easy part in my case. Leaving my violent spouse required another ten years before I was able to muster the will to ultimately refuse to be killed and dial 9-1-1 instead. Even after that, she nearly succeeded in manipulating me into canceling the divorce proceedings.
To be fair, my core dysfunction (inability to protect myself) was not caused by the Church or its leaders. The Church was no help, to be sure, but not the root cause. Turns out that the Church welcomes people with personal boundary issues who are predisposed to defer without question to external authority figures. I was a stalwart hook-line-and-sinker TBM until age 30. I am fortunate to have found my way out at a relatively young age.
Funny that I actually care way MORE about the Church now … than I ever did when I was an active TBM with a correlated brain. I have Mormon DNA that just ain’t gonna go away … anytime soon. Thinking your own thoughts … instead of somebody else’s programming … makes all the difference.
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I hope this woman has since had a child. I wish I could be a friend. Hugs to this sweet lady.
On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 10:36 PM Tocubit Is Invisible’s Cubit wrote:
> Sam Young posted: ” A story from a friend. It was the mid 80’s. I had > already suffered 2 miscarriages. This was devastating to me. I wanted to be > a mother more than anything in the world. I came from a large family. I was > taught that this was my destiny as a woman in the c” >
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The usual LDS response, if a problem of a bishop exists in one ward, is to say: “yes, but that’s probably just that ward – mine is fine.” Sam is right, members go to their bishops when they have a serious problem and the last thing they need is to accept the counsel from untrained leadership….. and even if they were ‘trained’ it would be totally inadequate, because each bishop is conditioned to follow the absurd dogmatic ideology of an archaic faith – one still lingering in the dark ages of modern thinking. They would do better to pick at random any neighbours house which was not LDS and ask for their advice! A ‘trained’ bishop is a contradiction, because however kind or careful his counsel, oral sex or sex full stop, is soaked in the paranoia of an old-fashioned religion – its still an evil word – an evil practice – only sanctified by ‘their’ purity codes.
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Why is sex such an important pre-occupation in the minds of these men even at such a tender moment? Get thee hence…
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Lesley,
To answer your question, here is a four-word description of the Mormon Church …
…. drum roll …
OUTER SPACE SEX CULT
The ultimate end-game of the Restored Gospel is Joseph Smith’s Kolob wet-dream come true = ENDLESS SERIAL COPULATION WITH GIRLS WITHOUT NUMBER.
A new sex partner every three minutes …. or however long Joseph’s refractory period might be.
(Good gospel doctrine question for BruceR or HughN: What is Elohim’s refractory period?)
Not a poster-boy for Delayed Gratification, our Hero successfully ushered in his own personal SEX ORGY thinly disguised as a Church.
PS – My get-rich-for-sure business model for the Celestial Kingdom: Selling Balm-of-Gilead to soothe sore and red Priesthood Rods … and a side business … Mobile Penis Reattachment Service. And if I REALLY wanna kill the Kolob market, I’ll set up my business as an MLM and let my downliners do all the work.
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No-one, absolutely no-one has permission, or authorization
from the Lord God to ask another human being whatever age, the following question : “Do you keep the law of Chastity? What law is that? Whose law is that? Only the vilest of men, low-life creatures can imagine this right to be theirs viz. as Gary has pointed out to invade someone’s panties/ underpants. THIS SIMPLY HAS TO STOP… it can no longer be permitted anywhere. Even posing this question has implications for young or mature or elderly. Those who ask it surely get some vicarious enjoyment.. Perhaps , before one goes in for a recommend one needs to ask the interrogator if one is required to answer such a question. If the answer is in the affirmative, one needs to cancel such an appointment and refrain from further contact with that person as that person is morally unclean.
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Agreed. But Mormons can’t attend the temple if they don’t answer that question. Rusty Nelson is having Revelation after Revelation OTHER than dealing with the REAL issue, to DEFLECT attention away from protecting the children. People are talking about the new endowments now (who gives AF) instead of the attention brought to the one-on-one, worthiness interviews with sex questions.
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Without a shadow of a doubt this church has an auto-immune disease, as I have said before. One can stall its demise but the end is inevitable. Those who insist on clinging to it are simply responsible for promoting policies designed to harm young people and damage families. There is so much good out there, so many people who care, so many who have left and yet continue to care for members, ex members, etc. Consider for a moment just how the harm meted out to McKenna Denson has impacted on her life, and on John Dehlin and now our Sam Young. And it sends grillies down my back when I see these Mormon “Gods” (remember the Second Anointing) strutting around desperately trying to manufacture more and more “revelations ” to cover up. It is actually so hilarious.
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Nice one ❤
I too have written a post for children. Do read and share your views. https://mesmotsbysazz.com/2019/01/11/paper-planes-dreams/
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