Today, I appealed my excommunication from the Mormon Church.
Dear President Nelson, President Oaks and President Eyring,
As you should know by now, the president of the Houston Texas South Stake recently called a disciplinary council to consider the status of my membership. On September 12, the verdict of excommunication was delivered.
The purpose of this letter is to present my appeal.
First, my stake president. He’s a good man, a friend. An important reason for my appeal is in consideration of my stake president’s welfare. If I don’t appeal, he will go down in history as the man who excommunicated the bishop who stood up to protect children. The verdict was made by him and only by him. Eventually, our interview policies will change. In the interim, when cases come forward of abuse, suicide and other serious consequences resulting from our dangerous protocol, my sensitive stake president could very well take it hard. He may hold himself accountable for abuse happening all around the world. That’s not fair. But the way it stands, he is all alone in responsibility for the excommunication.
With this appeal, you the First Presidency, will remove a huge burden from his shoulders. Whatever your decision, ownership of the verdict will be transferred to you. Whatever the consequences, they will be on your heads, not his.
Two charges were leveled against me.
- Encouraged others to vote opposed to Church leaders.
I have made a temple covenant to obey the law of God. Part of that law is the law of common consent. To me common consent is one of the most gorgeous principles of the latter-day restoration. You should know it well. Let me recap.
The Doctrine and Covenants contain the foundational revelations contingent with the restoration. Common Consent is referenced several times in very plain language. Here’s one.
D&C 28:13 states, “For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church.”
This law is also taught in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
Common consent is further elucidated by this doctrinal statement found on lds.org:
“Not only are Church officers sustained by common consent, but this same principle operates for policies, major decisions, acceptance of new scripture, and other things that affect the lives of the Saints (see D&C 26:2).”
Under sworn oath to the United States Congress, President Joseph F. Smith explained how common consent is supposed to work in the church. Following is an excerpt of President Smith’s testimony as he is questioned by members of the Committee on Privileges and Elections. The Mr. Smith referenced below is President Joseph F. Smith, head of the Mormon Church at the time.
Mr TAYLER: What is the method in which a revelation is received and becomes binding upon the people?
Mr SMITH: I will say this, Mr. Chairman, that no revelation given through the head of the church ever becomes binding and authoritative upon the members of the church until it has been presented to the church and accepted by them. (Note: the interview policies of our youth have never been presented to the church nor accepted by them.)
Mr WORTHINGTON: What do you mean by being presented to the church?
Mr SMITH: Presented in conference.
Mr TAYLER: Do you mean by that that the church in conference may say to you “We deny that God has told you to tell us this?”
Mr SMITH: Yes, sir, they can. And it is not binding upon them as members of the church until they accept it.
Senator OVERMAN: Does it require a majority to accept or must it be the unanimous voice?
Mr SMITH: A majority.
Mr TAYLER: Then if you had a revelation and presented it to your people, all who did not accept it would thereby be unchurched?
Mr SMITH: Not necessarily. Our people are given the largest possible latitude for their convictions, and if a man rejects a message that I may give to him but is still moral and believes in the main principles of the gospel and desires to continue in his membership in the church, he is permitted to remain and he is not unchurched. It is only those who on rejecting a revelation rebel against the church and withdraw from the church at their own volition. (Note: I am still moral and believe in the main principles of the gospel. I have not withdrawn from the church on my own volition.)
Mr SMITH: I should like to say to the honorable gentlemen that the members of the Mormon Church are among the freest and most independent people of all the Christian denominations. They are not all united on every principle. Every man is entitled to his own opinion and his own views and his own conceptions of right and wrong so long as they do not come in conflict with the standard principles of the church. (Note: I love the statement that Mormons are among the freest of Christian denominations. Excommunicating me sends a strong message that our Church is among the most repressive of Christian denominations. I do not come in conflict with the standard principles of the church. I stand as a witness in support of our core principles. However, I do stand as a witness against a policy. One that is damaging our children. And a policy that has never been presented to the church in the approval process that President Smith is defending to the United States Congress)
If a man assumes to deny God and to become an infidel we withdraw fellowship from him. If a man commits adultery we withdraw fellowship from him. If men steal or lie or bear false witness against their neighbors or violate the cardinal principles of the Gospel, we withdraw our fellowship. The church withdraws its fellowship from that man and he ceases to be a member of the church. But so long as a man or a woman is honest and virtuous and believes in God and has a little faith in the church organization, we nurture and aid that person to continue faithfully as a member of the church, though he may not believe all that is revealed. (Note: According to a prophet’s sworn testimony, I do not qualify for excommunication.)
This ends the quotes I’ll share from President Joseph F. Smith.
According to the law of common consent, members of the Church of Jesus Christ have the right and privilege to vote as their conscience dictates without punishment. Nowhere are we constrained from free speech. In order to exercise true consent, discussion should be encouraged and fostered. Including, making suggestions and recommendations to other members.
The charge that I’ve encouraged others to vote opposed to Church leaders is nonsensical on its face.
- In 1978 when the lifting of the racial ban was presented for a vote, what types of discussion were allowed? Was it ok for a member to encourage others to vote in approval? If so, was it also ok for someone opposed to voice their opinion and encourage others to vote in disapproval? Common consent is a farce if those who are voting can only discuss and make suggestions when they agree with what is being presented. Otherwise it’s a dictatorial system that flies in the face of the beauty of Christ’s injunction that all things MUST be done by common consent.
- Encouraged others to vote opposed to Church leaders? My encouragement has been for people to vote how they feel. If they approve…vote to sustain. If they disapprove…vote to oppose. My recommendation for members is to embrace common consent. I encourage all to live up to their temple covenant of obeying the law of God, which includes the law of common consent.
- Organized more than one public “action” that expressed opposition to the Church or its leaders.
This charge represents an uninformed interpretation. I have never organized actions to express opposition to the Church or its leaders. This is ridiculous. Every event was organized to express opposition to a POLICY. Not to a doctrine. Not to core principles. Not to our theology. I am not opposed to the church. Likewise I am not opposed to its leaders. In fact, I’m the biggest supporter of my Church that I know.
If you care about something you fight for it. If you love something you don’t tolerate what might destroy it. You are passionate to nurture and make it better. I don’t know of anyone who is fighting for our Church with more vigor than I am.
On the other hand, if I didn’t care, I’d ignore the Church’s deadly flaws. I’d turn a blind eye to its faults. Or I would simply desert it and walk away. By my actions, it should be plainly evident that am speaking up FOR my church and not against it.
At the council, for 15 minutes the stake president presented his evidence against me. Most of it was taken from my blog publications. Much was taken out of context. I believe that I’ve more than adequately addressed the evidence against me by addressing the two charges above.
However, there was one citation from the Deseret News that was presented as evidence. Tad Walsh wrote that I was encouraging members to leave the church. That’s a lie. Tad either made-up the quote out of whole cloth or he misheard. Nowhere have I told people that they should leave the church. You won’t find it quoted by any other news outlets. It’s not on my blog. Nor can it be found in any of the multitude of videos that I’ve published.
Let’s work together to make our Church better, especially for our children. I firmly believe that you have already received the revelation to eliminate one-on-one interviews and sexual questions to our children and youth. Several factors point in that direction.
For example, on July 27th, I received a phone call from Gifford Nielson, a member of the 1st Quorum of the Seventy. My 23 day fast had a planned start time of 7pm that evening. He called me early in the afternoon. Giff is a good friend and we had a great chat that lasted about 1 ½ hours. The main thrust of his call was to find a way to avert the hunger strike. We were not able to find an accommodation that was agreeable to both of us. His final offer was this, “Sam, if the apostles provided you with a letter stating that they are working on making changes, would you call off your action?”
I can’t see Giff being dishonest or disingenuous. He would have only offered a letter stating changes were being worked on if in fact they were really being worked on. I listened to every talk during the 8 hours of last Sunday’s General Conference. My hopes were high that the changes to which Elder Nielsen had alluded would be included in the major announcements all of us were anticipating.
My encouragement to you, dear First Presidency, is to release the changes now. Don’t wait until April’s conference to offer our children the full protections that they deserve.
This conference was historic. The change to a 2 hour schedule has been received with relish. When you announce God’s new protections for children, it will be received with much more than relish. You will go down in history as wise and beloved leaders. Members, bishoprics and children will embrace the new policies without reservation. They will rejoice. Those outside the Church will be impressed. They will witness the Church of Jesus Christ proactively putting on a strong protective mantle over our little ones.
Contrast this to what happens if you allow this excommunication to stand. The Church and its leaders will be viewed with revulsion by many outside the church. People will not respond well when they discover how we treat our children and what we do to members who speak up to protect them.
Do the right thing. Be on the right side of history. Reverse this excommunication.
Warm regards,
Sam Young
Tocubit Is Invisible's Cubit 
Robert you have absolutely no idea of what the consequences are, of what you are advocating. You just have a warm fuzzy feeling. Do you understand the concept of grooming? Membership is not static…families move on. You cannot guarantee the safety of any of “your youth ” from predators. “His fruits destroy my fruits”. Protectlds children’s aim is to destroy opportunities for predators. Your reaction reminds me of Rumpelstiltskin.
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So, you think me discussing the harm of viewing pornography with 26-17 year old young men is grooming eh?
Wow! You are delusional.
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How would you know that the person discussing sexual matters with a teenager is a predator or not?
Are you okay with a predator discussing these types of things with a teenager?
Parishioners in the Catholic Church thought their clergy was safe. It’s not much different in the Mormon Church.
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Rob Osborne YOU on the otherhand seem to be totally preoccupied with pornography. Do you not realise that by continually raising the subject with a bright curious teenager, you might just set him/her off along that path? And if your interviews are so innocuous, then lulling a young person into a comfort zone that all is well when one has a private interview with a man behind a desk (a physical indication of authority), alone in an office, behind closed doors, is GROOMING that young person. For the first time since resigning a year ago I will confess to feeling unhappy, depressed, unmotivated…thank goodness for retail shopping!!! En route, we came into contact with two of our children who are ‘out’, one who is ‘in’, a grandson who is ‘in’ and two of his friends…lots of hugs hello and finally hugs goodbye. They are part of our precious family…we love them so much and it is only by the grace of God that two of them are now well-adjusted and making huge contributions in their community, despite those disgusting interviews. “Maturbation?…oh they asked that all the time.!!” My feelings of depression …the fact that the four of our eight children who are still ‘in’, might still be limited by the same restraints as those displayed by you. Fortunately this is offset by our add- on- son, who has never been involved in the Mormon Church and yet walks with God, loves us, confides in us and asks for advice, and also by our beautiful autistic daughter. Robert please step back…conceed that Sam received personal revelation (a legitimate concept in your church) regarding his daughters. He followed the line of authority in an attempt to redress his grievances. The response of the hierarchy in your church resulted in their devious behaviour, which is now shown to be historically typical of leaders of the Church of Christ since 1832.
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HTC,
You cant compare te immorality in the Catholic church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are worlds apart. The whole world is aware of the sex abuse problem in the Catholic church. There relatively is no sex abuse problem in my religion. Occasionally you hear of a bishop or leader who committs a sexual crime in my church but its not common. You hear of ten times, perhaps a hundred times more cases of sex abuse in our public schools. Im thus surprised why you aren’t saying or suggesting that my religion is abusing children just like our public schools, just not as much. Lets be fair and honest. No official investigations have been made into the church clergy for abuse problems.
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Robert,
“No official investigations have been made into the church clergy for abuse problems.”
What about convictions and prison time? Does that count?
You truly have a bag over your head this time, Robert.
The magnitude of your denial is sobering.
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“You cant compare te immorality in the Catholic church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are worlds apart. The whole world is aware of the sex abuse problem in the Catholic church.”
Robert,
Yes, I can compare commonalities in the immorality in the Catholic Church to the Mormon Church, especially when it comes down to protecting children from predators. Yes, the whole world is aware of the sex abuse problem in the Catholic Church. Similarly, over time more and more people are becoming aware of sex abuse in the Mormon Church. Both religions had their way of hiding the problem, respectively. For example in history: The Catholic Church moved their pedophile priests to other congregations while the Mormon Church pays hush money to victims while encouraging them to let bishops handle matter ecclesiastically and not report incidents to law enforcement.
Mormon Church leaders are still allowing bishops to have one-on-one interviews with children where inappropriate questioning is happening. Sadly, it will probably take a few more major scandals for the membership, including you, to wake up and demand better policies to adequately protect both children and bishops.
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Gary,
What is it with you and masturbation? You are hung up on it entirely. The truth of it is we very rarely ever bring it up and ifwe do it’s in the context of if one has a problem with it. To be honest, in my entire life, I was asked once in my youth if I “had a problem with masturbation”. I said “no, I don’t”. That was it, that was all. When I talk to youth about the law of chastity it’s almost entirely and exclusively on the subject of pornography and/or sex outside of marriage. So, I don’t know why you keep going on and on about masturbation. Let’s discuss where the rubber meets the road and the real problem with our youth and immorality. And what is that? Pornography and premarital sexual activity.
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Robert,
You wrote something I mostly agree with:
“Let’s discuss where the rubber meets the road and the real problem with our youth and immorality. And what is that? Pornography and premarital sexual activity.”
I will agree that a “real problem” is premarital sexual activity. Kids having sex is a recipe for disaster. Kids are not responsible enough to play with fire without getting burned eventually.
When my brother was a Bishop, his teenage daughter got pregnant. Maybe twice. If kids can be encouraged to not have sex, that is good. Whatever my Bishop Brother did … it did not work very well on his own daughter.
So … Robert … you now seem to be downplaying masturbation. Are you now implying that masturbation is kind of OK? All things considered? Lesser of evils, at least?
Or are you assuming that if the kid does not confess, that he/she does not masturbate?
“To be honest, in my entire life, I was asked once in my youth if I “had a problem with masturbation”. I said “no, I don’t”. That was it, that was all.”
So… I have to ask, Robert. When you answered “no, I don’t” did you mean that you had never masturbated, or that you had no problem masturbating when you wanted to? Or did you mean that you only masturbated occasionally, and that it’s not interfering with your life and is not a problem?
Or are you saying that YOU (or your brother) asks your kids, “Do you have a problem with masturbation?” Actually, if you are going to ask, that’s the best way to ask. My Bishop asked me that question at least once. I said No. You can answer the question phrased that way “No” and still masturbate and not be lying. You can laugh at your Bishop or thank him for letting you off the hook with a softball masturbation question.
Regardless, I still felt shame and guilt.
At least you are starting (on Sam’s blog) to acknowledge that various sexual behaviors carry varying degrees of potentially deleterious consequences … aka … different gradients of risk and seriousness.
Which is it, Robert? Are you now saying you are OK with occasional masturbation as long as it does not become a “problem”?
I would appreciate it if you would clarify whether it is OK for your kids to masturbate in moderation as long as they do not look at pornography or have sex. If that is OK with you, have you told your kids it’s OK to masturbate, but leave the porn and penetration alone?
“What is it with you and masturbation? You are hung up on it entirely.”
Robert, I am hung up on it because … because why? Because many kids are taught by their Bishops that jerking off is a sin next to murder. That means that many kids are going around loathing themselves because they can’t seem to sustain abstaining. Some kids have killed themselves. You seem to be in denial on that.
What do YOUR kids get taught about masturbation, Robert? What do YOUR kids who masturbate go around thinking and feeling about their self-esteem and self-worthiness in YOUR ward?
You seem to be downplaying it in your last post. Earlier you characterized masturbation as the gateway to moral debauchery and total life ruination.
Which is it?
What we are discussing here are detail symptoms of a larger issue, seems to me. The overarching Mormon Church attitudes about sexuality in general are very messed up, in my opinion. You seem to believe that Church sex education should be creating a culture of healthy, well-adjusted kids who somehow pretend they don’t have gonads? To be a righteous Mormon kid, you pretty much have to pretend you look like Barbie or Ken in your birthday suit.
Robert, did you masturbate when you were a teenager? How did you feel about it?
I will not ask you if you masturbate now. That is a personal question you should NEVER answer … not even if your brother asks you. Does he ask you?
When I was a teenager and discovered masturbation by accident myself (messing around with an electric sander), I didn’t even know what had happened. Totally naive. All I knew was that it felt amazing. (I should have named new friend Sandy.) Only later on did I get educated that I had accidentally discovered my very own personal power tool portal to unworthiness and debauchery.
Maybe you would have been proud of me, Robert. I was a virgin when I married in the Salt Lake Temple. The only glitch was the marriage-from-hell that ensued. But I was a virgin! Maybe if I had not been a virgin, I might have figured out ahead of time that I was marrying a violent psychopath … and changed course. No regrets, however. I learned a lot.
I just gave you some nice ammo, Robert. Fire away! (I am not baiting you on purpose … it just happened naturally.)
Actually, I just triggered a new thought: When a Mormon confesses to their Bishop, they are giving The Brethren (represented by the Bishop) some powerful Mind Control Ammo … which can and will be used against them.
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Gary,
I think we both know there are varrying levels of immorality. Just as there are varrying levels of breaking the law such as driving over the speed limit vs. murder there are also varrying levels of immorality. Let me ask you- do you think driving over the speed limit is okay? Why is the speed limit in place? To keep people safe. Sure, we may justify the occasional speeding in our minds but in reality it’s still breaking the law. The problem is everyone does it and justifies it because everyone else is doing it. After time it becomes acceptable, perhaps even viewed as legal to drive just a few miles over the speed limit. And so it is with masturbation or lustful thoughts or viewing “soft porn”, etc. In some degree we all do those things. We aren’t perfect
But, we have been commanded to become perfect. In analogy, it is possible to never drive over the speed limit- ever! And so too it is with lustful desires, pornography, masturbation, etc. We can overcome these immoral acts and thoughts. Youth need to be made aware that these slightly going over the speed limit acts and thoughts occasionally, so to speak, are still not correct but that they can and should be overcome.
I’m not sure where you get this idea that masturbation is viewed in my religion as next to murder. No one in my religion teaches that, it’s a tool and lie of the devil.
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Robert,
Thank you for writing something sane and sensible. Your speeding metaphor is very good. I mean REALLY GOOD! You acknowledge that sexual behaviors (as with Life in general) are not Black or White. That is a huge acknowledgment.
OK! We are making progress.
Sigh of relief here on this end!
Well, done!
I stand all amazed, actually … truth be told.
Now …
I WANT YOU (AND YOUR BISHOP BROTHER) TO TEACH WHAT YOU JUST WROTE ON SAM’S BLOG TO THE KIDS IN YOUR WARD, ROBERT.
I want you to teach the kids that masturbation is kinda like driving 5 mph over the speed limit. Not the best idea in the world, but not gonna hurt ANYBODY … unless you are stupid enough to think that if 5 mph is OK … then 50 mph over might be OK as well.
Deal, Robert?
Seriously. Do you realize what you just did?
In your blogpost, you DESHAMED MASTURBATION, Robert. Do you realize that? Do you realize just how HUGE that is? Do you realize what a MONUMENTAL TECTONIC SHIFT it would be if The Brethren were to deshame masturbation for the entire Church?
“I’m not sure where you get this idea that masturbation is viewed in my religion as next to murder. No one in my religion teaches that, it’s a tool and lie of the devil.”
Jesus Christ, Robert. Where have you been? It comes from the “For The Strength of Youth” pamphlet … you know … the one published by … DT&L Media, LLC. Have you heard of them? Devil Tool & Lie? Kinda like a Tool & Die company, except the only thing Die about it is when LDS kids kill themselves after being emotionally crushed by a lethal pile-on of guilt and shame … dispensed by … their Bishop.
Here’s the 3-Dot Connect for you: Sexual sins are sins next to murder. Masturbation is a sexual sin. Masturbation is therefore a sin next to murder.
You think that is ridiculous. So do I.
Howzabout The Brethren STOP their tacit approval of masturbation shaming Church-wide?
What? You think masturbation shaming is not happening Church-wide?
Tell your brother you jerk yourself off twice a month, and don’t plan on stopping anytime soon. See if he will renew your Temple Recommend.
Try going on a mission and tell your Stake President that you are looking forward to serving the Lord for two years, and that you plan on jerking off maybe once a month during your mission so it does not interfere with doing the work of the Lord.
Time for you to tell me, Robert, you did not really mean what you wrote. You did not mean to DESHAME MASTURBATION.
I have just pointed out a personal problem you did not realize you have, Robert. It is this:
You have revealed that your PERSONAL CORE VALUES are not in full alignment with the CORE VALUES OF THE BRETHREN.
You believe that masturbation ain’t all that serious. The Brethren disagree.
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Robert,
I should have commented that “Be Ye Therefore Perfect” is TOXIC POISON when you lay that on a mere human being … especially a work-in-progress human teenager trying to grow up and figure himself/herself out.
You are obviously a very intelligent man, Robert. You realize that requiring yourself to be PERFECT is a recipe for disappointment, especially when you just blew it if you look at your speedometer and discovered, to your shock and horror, that you are 5 over.
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Rob Osborn…why does it have to be about YOU versus Sam Young? Do you have a special calling to represent the Church of Jesus Christ in this regard? When were you sustained? And the title of this “calling”? I suggest to you that you think so highly of yourself: you are ultra narcisstic. Gary already alluded to the fact that you qualify for the position of prophet in your church. According to the principles that govern the church, the prophet is the only person who holds the keys to represent the church. Has he assigned any of those to you? Rob Osborn you are totally out of line. Sam, as the patriarch of his family on the otherhand received a personal revelation from the Lord God and it is Sam’s duty and calling to question and ensure protection for his family. His supporters are fortunate that someone so courageous spoke up and offered healing and compassion to those harmed by a policy which overrides the authority of parents. Perhaps the moral of the proverbial story is that if everyone just did what they were supposed to do i.e. to mind their own “beeswax”, things would run smoothly and my children(at least 3 of them) would not have suffered as a result of those masturbation interviews.!
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Rob may be here on a blog-troll mission – for The Church. If so, at some point he’ll retire from the field – to be replaced by another one (or sometimes two). In the meantime, it’s usually not too hard to trip them up – in the threads of their own rationalizations.
Gary is doing a wonderful job of letting Rob step all over his own crank – as it were. 😏
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Oh yes…Gary is amazing and the trolls just could not take no for an answer!
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Donnie,
Curious thought that Robert could be a troll. We can’t know for sure because how do you tell the difference between programmed troll-speak and a brainwashed Full-Kolobian-Kool-Aid Drunk? Both spew Logical Fallacies with wild abandon and generally refuse to engage in honest exchange of ideas, although Robert has posted helpful, coherent thought on occasion. Give credit where credit is due. Robert has contributed much to this discussion. I do appreciate him.
It is very possible and doable to both respect and appreciate people … without agreeing with them. That wears thin at times when someone writes something in-your-face butt-stupid … but Hey! We’re all human. I write butt-stupid shit every day and twice on Sunday.
And …. how do we know that I am not a troll?
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Gary,
It is Christ who said the command to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. We should obey all the laws of the land which include never speeding. Is it possible to never speed? Absolutely. Is it possible to overcome selfish self pleasure? Absolutely. Is it possible to never seek out and view pornography? Absolutely. Is it possible to remove all lustful desire from our hearts and minds? Absolutely.
As children go through their youth years they fall spiritually, they become carnal, or “natural”. This nature though is at enmity with godliness. As youth fall into these transgressions and sins naturally the light within them fades. It is our job as parents, mentors, and leaders, who have already gone through it, to help them understand right from wrong, to help them realize the shame they feel from sin can be prevented, can be overcome. Now, that said, I find it of great interest that God, through his kindness and mercy, allows his children to still perform holy ordinances for themselves and others while in this fallen condition. No young man is pure who perform the sacrament each week. God knows this and certainly every parent and leader should know this. So then, why does God allow it? Because it improves their capacity to change, or their desire to do such. It’s with the end goal in mind. If every young man had to be wholly perfect with morality before they could administer the sacrament or go to the temple no one would ever be available. And as such, hopelessness would abound. Youth need to feel both sides of it- what shame and guilt feels like, and what repentance and change feels like. Thus, as a youth decides to change, and does, even if those changes are very small gradual changes, it has the power to strengthen and overcome all selfish immorality and become eventually perfected.
Many of you seem to advocate that masturbation is natural with nothing wrong with it and that no one should ever feel shameful for doing it. That’s exactly the same as saying that speeding over the limit is natural and nothing wrong with it. The problem is though the law in in place to protect us and others. Same with masturbation. The feelings of sexual pleasure, in the right context of marriage is uplifting and edifying, even holy. But, when one self pleasures it only hurts themselves. It positively does breed immoral lusts towards others. It breeds the want to stimulate visuals and fantasies of others in immoral acts. It is almost always associated with viewing pornography at some point.
The point of it is, just as everyone knows speeding is against the law, so too is self pleasure and the immoral acts and desires that go along with it.
It really seems that Sam knows masturbation isn’t holy, he just doesn’t want to discuss it.
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FYI, I don’t believe that masturbation is a sin. Not for a youth. Not for an adult. Not for a single person. Not for a married person. Most members of my high priest quorum don’t believe its a sin for them. When I asked my stake president if masturbation was a sin for a man married in the temple he responded with “I don’t get involved with what happens behind a bedroom door of a married couple as long as it’s consensual. I have written all about this in the links below. But, my cause is not about masturbation. So I don’t discuss it much. My cause is to stop dangerous and damaging interviews that shame our children in to hating themselves.
https://invisiblescubit.wordpress.com/2016/06/24/taboo/
https://invisiblescubit.wordpress.com/2017/08/10/bippity-bop-a-sin-its-not/
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Sam,
It’s a clinically proven fact that masturbation by itself, whether one is religious or not, creates shame and guilt. The reasons have to do with chemicals in the brain. We literally create a prison house for ourselves by yielding to masturbation. It’s not healthy. Psychologists treat chronic masturbators in the same way they treat porn addicts. It’s effects are bad on relationships and marriage. As C.S. Lewis stated-
“For me the real evil of masturbation would be that it takes an appetite which, in lawful use, leads the individual out of himself to complete (and correct) his own personality in that of another (and finally in children and even grandchildren) and turns it back; sends the man back into the prison of himself, there to keep a harem of imaginary brides.
And this harem, once admitted, works against his ever getting out and really uniting with a real woman.
For the harem is always accessible, always subservient, calls for no sacrifices or adjustments, and can be endowed with erotic and psychological attractions which no woman can rival.
Among those shadowy brides he is always adored, always the perfect lover; no demand is made on his unselfishness, no mortification ever imposed on his vanity.
In the end, they become merely the medium through which he increasingly adores himself…After all, almost the main work of life is to come out of our selves, out of the little dark prison we are all born in. Masturbation is to be avoided as all things are to be avoided which retard this process. The danger is that of coming to love the prison.”
It’s a foolish lie to believe there’s no harm in masturbation. It’s first effect is that it causes one to love oneself, ones body, and worship it. Because it takes more stimulation over time, pornography and fantasy come into play. A person then becomes a slave to oneself. The side effects of these unnatural chemical releases have the same effect as drug addiction. The result is feelings of shame, guilt, depression and axiety problems in oneself. It effects others, especially in relationships.
Bishops do not create the guilt. The shame and guilt is the bodies natural reaction to masturbation, pornography viewing, erotic immoral fantasy, etc. The neural passages created cause this dilemma. Whether one is religious or not, whether they are interviewed or not, they still feel the same shame and guilt. Dont believe me? Just do an internet search on it. They really do treat masturbation addicts the same exact way they treat porn addicts.
You can try to justify to yourself that masturbation is not harmful, the clinical studies on it’s effects on the brain prove otherwise.
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Great thesis on the effects of masturbation. Fortunately, science has moved on from the time of C.S. Lewis. The general therapeutic community now views masturbation as normal and natural. Shame is not a natural outcome. It’s the outcome of being taught that it’s deviant and evil. But is it a sin? If you teach that it is, your will find NO scriptural support whatsoever. Many active members of the church would disagree with you. Even my stake president and bishop were not willing to call it a sin for a man married in the temple. Again, that’s not my issue. You can believe anything you want. My issue is bishops taking children behind closed doors and probing with explicit sexual questions. When my 12 year old daughter was asked if she masturbated, that was a sexually explicit question. It introduced her to both masturbation and pornography. Once she was introduced to masturbation by the bishop, she resorted to lying to him about it. How about you go ask C.S. Lewis what he thinks about untrained men talking about sex with children behind closed doors. He would be mortified. Every person outside the church is repulsed by our practice. I’d suggest that you query a few non-members about our practice. You’ll quickly learn that the Mormon Church should work like the dickens to hide what they do to children.
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Thank you Sam
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Sam,
What does the scriptures say about pornography? What about addiction to cocaine? Honestly Sam, its a weak argument. And if you think its Bishops who are introducing youth to pornography and masturbation you need to pull your head out and wake up to the real world.
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Rob Osborn, “How is it that you know so much, about so much?”
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I dont know a lot, I know a little bit about a few things. Thats the same for all of us. On this subject we are discussing it appears many in here dont know very much. Well, either that or they lie. Im guessing that they border more on the lies part because any halfway intelligent person knows that we subject our children, from a very young age, to a plethora of sexuality and filth on the television, internet and public schools. To say that its Bishops who first expose this to youth, one either is an imbecile or just lies. Im hoping no one in here is an imbecile, so they must be telling lies.
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It does not advance you argument to call me a liar or an imbecile. It’s not worth my time to even respond.
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Robert,
A common theme in most of what you write is the Logical Fallacy of a Black-or-White aka All-or-Nothing perspective on Reality. You DID display some rational thought a couple of posts back … when you acknowledged there are various degrees of immorality. The hidden B&W undercurrent there is the labeling of ANYTHING sexual that deviates from Married Hetero Couple MIssionary Position Copulation as deviant and immoral.
I appreciate Sam’s thoughtful response to your Robert’s Masturbation MasturClass (sorry … Stan made me write that). Saved me a lot of time marching through and pointing out the Thought Errors sprinkled throughout what you wrote.
I did much appreciate your essay, truth be told. There are many nuggets of useful insights in there, alongside numerous omissions of balanced perspective that would have enhanced the credibility of the piece significantly.
A good way to write is to sometimes anticipate the pushback from an opposing view and address it head on proactively.
I will just make a couple of observations. Sam is right about sex shaming being taught/learned. Sex shaming is ubiquitous across Planet Earth with a few exceptions. Your assertion that masturbation is intrinsically shameful … based on “studies” merely confirms my previous sentence.
“It’s a foolish lie to believe there’s no harm in masturbation. It’s [sic] first effect is that it causes one to love oneself, ones [sic] body, and worship it.”
May God help us and deliver us from the crime of … loving ourselves and loving our own bodies, Robert. Way better idea to despise oneself and see one’s body as a temptation to do and be evil. We should only love God … and his spokesmodels in Salt Lake City.
The only righteous use of the human sexual response is to procreate new tithe payers. And the sisters of the Church are derelict in their duty to manufacture more tithe payers … according to admonitions delivered during the Women’s Session of the last General Conference.
One last comment, Robert. It’s quite hilarious how C.S. painted a very realistic picture of the many ADVANTAGES of masturbation vis-a-vis “really uniting with a real woman.” It is very likely that the majority of married people would be MUCH happier being single again. I do acknowledge that a mutually healthy, long-term relationship is not an impossibility, but my guess is that less than 5% of actual marriages survive the test of time where the couple would opt to stay together if a Magic Genie appeared and made them an offer. My own parents didn’t even like each other. They should have divorced instead of having seven kids to witness a crappy marriage in slow motion.
So … anyway … Robert, I am now going to STOP my participation in this thread with you. I respect your right to shame masturbation all you like, and to shame kids (and adults) who masturbate. My hope is that kids ignore your harmful effects and heed your positive effects on them. (That sentence is an example of non-B&W thinking.)
By the way, the Bishop interviews and masturbation debate is a symptom of a much deeper problem, which is ultimately the ROOT CAUSE of everything unhealthy about the Mormon Church.
Joseph LIED. He made it all up. The Mormon Church is a colossal fraud from Day Number One. The Brethren actively and proactively exercise time-tested methods of Brainwash Mind Control to keep their Host members (their source of Parasite sustenance) under their direction and control … forever Paying, Praying and Obeying … especially the Paying.
I say these things in the name of … ME … MYSELF … and … I … Amen.
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“and his spokesmodels in Salt Lake City.” Lol!!!
“in the name of … ME … MYSELF … and … I … Amen.” A truth that applies to everyone’s statements, including the ‘brethren.’
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Gary,
It’s rather obvious you dislike the church and it’s leaders. And, the way Sam chimes in, he dislikes the church and it’s leaders also.
You don’t really understand morality and self control. Satan’s biggest tool is to cause spiritual blindness on the world and get people to justify immorality and self pleasure, greed, lustfulness, and all other manner of filth. He’s doing a pretty swell job of it. He’s got a lot of the world to view marriage as distasteful, self pleasure as uplifting, and pornography as a commonplace form of entertainment.
Just be careful not to continue to blasphemy. You will find it hard to be forgiven of that. Good day.
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Pulled my head out? Again that kind of attack does not advance your argument with me. I started waking up 3 years ago. 1 1/2 years ago, I found out that my several years ago a bishop asked my 12 year old daughter if she masturbated. My daughter told me that she nor any of her friends knew what it meant. So she googled it. Found out what it was, how to do it. She was also introduced to pornography on the same search. There are many examples in the stories recounting the same thing. Regardless of whether or not a 12 year old already knows what masturbation is, an untrained my should NEVER take a 12 year old or any year old behind closed doors and ask if she touches herself down there. Everyone in the real world agrees. It’s only in the Mormon world that it’s a holy and sanctioned practice. You need to wake up to the real world. Read the stories. Talk to your non-mormon neighbors and friends. That’s the real world. NO ONE outside of Mormondom would accept this happening to their children.
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Sam,
You can live your delusion all you like. I am curious though, your daughter said she googled x-rated material. Kind of proves my point that we allow such to even take place as parents. Your campaign should be against parents, just like yourself, that allow or unknowingly subject their kids to access x-rated material.
Good day.
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Rob Osborn…enough is enough. I am sure you are Rob Osborn on Mormon Hub…when I addressed you as Rob, you responded to that, then reverted to “Robert Osborn.” You certainly thrive on speculation. What a good Mormon you are, judging people without any evidence whatsoever; furthermore taking it upon yourself to represent your church without any authority whatsoever. Look at you posts and it is interesting that you seem preoccupied with controlling people’s lives and morality…just who is lying? That quote is from the movie THE WEDDING DATE. The audience understands the allusion as Edward asks : “How is it that you know so much about so much?” Nick answers truthfully: “Because I am a hooker.” Edward laughs in unbelief. So Robert perhaps you should answer the question truthfully this time: “How is it that you know so much about so much?” Why are you SO opposed to the amazing good Sam has accomplished? My husband who follows Tocubit in snippets as he gets ready for work, has a theory about you based on your defense of bishops etc. I agree with him. In conclusion, You need to heed the Lord God’s admonition when he said: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me, and love thy neighbour as thyself.” Rob Osborn stop judging…God is perfectly capable of doing so Himself.
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I sense some hypocrisy. It seems you have done nothing but judge me. And for Sam and Gary, all they do is judge the church and it’s leaders. Sam doesn’t do good. Perhaps in his mind he believes so but he wants to dismiss youth immorality as natural. He wants to convince youth they shouldn’t feel guilt or shame for being unchaste. But it’s worse than that, he seeks to destroy the church and paint it as a house of pedophiles and abusers.
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Robert,
I stumbled on this old thread and read some of it just now.
One new comment.
You wrote: “… he seeks to destroy the church and paint it as a house of pedophiles and abusers.”
The Church is most certainly NOT “… a house of pedophiles and abusers.” There are lots of good and decent Church members.
Changing your words slightly does, however, result in a statement of Truth:
” …the church … houses … pedophiles and abusers.”
The Mormon Church has demonstrated itself to be a very SAFE PLACE for pedophiles and abusers. Are you aware The Brethren stole some of YOUR tithing money to PAY the defense lawyers for Michael Jensen’s West Virginia criminal trial?
Where else will your Church rob tithing donations from faithful members to defend other members caught molesting LDS children?
Is this a great Church … or what?
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Robert I undertook to support Sam on Protectlds Children. My son said “Mother you were always fighting”. On FamilySearch I was convinced I would be excommunicated several times since 2010 but I was not considered worthy enough to excommunicate as I am a woman. You need to apply your key words to yourself..delusional, imbecile, teller of lies, blasphemous, obsessed with masturbation and pornography. You are extremely judgemental and given to speculation. Now you can label me as judgemental …an after-effect of 55 years in that Church; however your preoccupation with those concepts reveals much about you. You refer to the youth in your ward as your youth. Rubbish they are not yours.
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It reveals I am concerned with the youth and teaching correct moral principles. Sam’s work on the other hand support Satan’s plans to do whatever you want, do whatever feels natural and good to the body. He is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. long before he took up his cause on this issue he had troubles with church leadership and became disaffected. A voice of warning is all I am giving- beware of whose side you are championing for. To fight against the Lord’s annointed prophets and apostles is the very road to perdition.
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Robert, can you say more about what Sam had in the past and with whom? Thank you.
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There is a distinction between judging people for their private behaviors -and- taking action to protect vulnerable and defenseless youth from harm.
Sam does not judge what anyone does on their own or with other consenting adults. Sam does care when those under the age of consent are coerced by their guardians and protectors to endure exposure to toxic influences and then suffer deleterious effects until they die.
Since when did I appoint myself Spokesmodel for Sam? I should preface those two sentences with “I believe that … ”
==========
Before my TBM mother died, I told her I was a Son of Perdition. I once KNEW the Church is true beyond a shadow of a doubt … and then I reneged. Shame on me. My mother did not accept that I earned my Son of Perdition Merit Badge. I don’t blame her. It looks bad on your Eternal Resume’ that you lost over half of your seven children to Stan the Big Bad Buffeteer.
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In her “A History of God” Karen Armstrong refers on pg. 56 to the fact that Isaiah felt that exterior observance was not enough. Israelites must discover the inner meaning of their religion. Yaweh wanted compassion rather than sacrifice: (Isaiah 1: 15-17). The prophets had discovered for themselves the overriding duty of compassion, which would become the hallmark of all the major religions in the Axial Age….After enlightenment, a man or woman must return to the market place and practise compassion for all living things. (Axial Age 800-200BCE, a time of transition during which the major world religions emerged in the civilized world.) Sam Young epitomizes COMPASSION. The sacrifices he may have made are simply incidental. He has never counted the costs beforehand. Robert have you done any good in the world today? Sam has …for many days, and weeks and months before now , and he will continue to do so in the future. Please refrain from maligning him any longer. You do need to STOP.
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By their fruits ye shall know them…prophets if they represent God, are supposed to be compassionate, above all else.
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Im in the trenches mulitple times during a week with the youth. Im actually working with them. Is Sam? By your fruits ye shall know thrm.
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