Thursday, January 25, 2018, I met with my Stake President(SP) and Bishop(BP) to discuss my concerns about youth interviews. The meeting lasted 3 hours. These are very good men. I would vouch for them anywhere. The Stake President is the local representative who speaks on behalf of the Church with regards to me.
At the outset, I asked if they were recording the interview. I believe that on two occasions, my phone conversations with Church headquarters have been recorded. The SP assured me that he was not recording.
I told them that on three recent occasions, during meetings with Church representatives, I have been told that the conversations were to remain private. This, even though the discussions were about church policy. No longer am I willing to keep private things that are not private. I told the SP this and then asked if he would like me to record the meeting. That way, when I wrote or talked about it, I wouldn’t get anything wrong. He asked me not to record it. I didn’t.
I then presented the book ‘Sacred Stories of Sacred Children.’ It contains 250 stories of horrendous consequences suffered by our youth. They quickly flipped through the book, not stopping to read. Both the BP and SP said that they believe the stories. That was very good news. I could only guess that they had read them elsewhere.
I briefly described a few of the stories. Instances of sexual assault by bishops, suicide and severe trauma. The SP responded, “Shame on those men.” Well, I certainly agree with that. And I take it one step further, “Shame on the system that enabled the actions of these men.”
At that point, I invited them to join with me to protect the children. That invitation was quickly brushed off the table for any consideration.
Then we launched into a long back and forth about why I thought the current policies are dangerous and damaging. Followed by their defense as to why they are necessary and good. Conclusion? No changes will be made.
During this discussion, they brought up two valid points that I agree need to be addressed.
- My writings were hurting people. I asked, “Who am I hurting?” The SP said that I’d hurt him. He then read from my most recent email to him. It had hurt his feelings to the core. I could see that. My letter had been harsh and angry. I had written it from the backdrop of being ignored for months and then reading another horrific story of a damaged child. It was legitimate for him to call me out on this. My anger should be focused on the correct target….the disgusting policy. I’m committed to do better on this front. The offensive letter had been posted on my website. I decided to take it down, which I have. The SP did not make this request.
- How are voluntary confessions to be handled? I don’t know the answer to that question. It does need to be addressed. However, the vast majority of the youth interviews are NOT voluntary confessions. 13,000 of us are calling for the immediate stop of what is happening today. Then, we can sort out how the few and far between voluntary confessions are handled. Never-the-less, I still believe that they should not occur behind closed doors, all alone with the child.
The SP expressed concern about my change in attitude…the anger in my writings, the image of a roaring lion. I didn’t respond in the moment. But, how in the world can 1,000 stories NOT change my attitude? If a person can read story after dreadful story and not be changed, they are capable of something I am not. Yeah, you bet I’ve changed. My heart has been broken a thousand times. It’s now full of empathy and compassion. While my belly is full of fire to protect our children.
Finally, my agenda had been aired….over and over again with no meeting of the minds.
Then the Stake President launched into his agenda.
SP: Sam, do you want to be a member of the Church?
ME: Yes.
SP: Sam, are you an apostate?
ME: No.
SP: You are an apostate!
ME: No, I’m not. I’m speaking out about the need to change a policy.
SP: You are an apostate!
He then flipped to the definition of apostasy in Handbook 1:
“Apostasy refers to members who repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.”
SP: Sam, are you an apostate?
ME: No. I’m not speaking out against the Church of its leaders. I’m speaking out against a policy.
SP: You are an apostate.
He ended up reading the definition of apostasy a few more times. It quickly became obvious that there was no debating this issue. I had been officially declared apostate by the official Church representative.
SP: You can’t continue speaking in public about this. We will have to protect the good name of the church.
Take-aways
- In the face of hundreds of children being harmed…the Church will not change anything to protect this happening to our children in the future.
- I have officially been called apostate and told to be silent.
- With the repeated warnings of apostasy, the stage for my excommunication has been set.
- The SP had wanted my wife to be present. I am so glad that she was not there to witness the thinly veiled threat made to her husband.
My Public Response
- I agree that we need to protect the good name of the church. How about that? The Church’s reputation is being trashed by a dreadful policy that is doing severe harm to our children. My fellow Mormons…join with 13,000 of us to protect the good name of the Church. If this policy is not eliminated, those who didn’t speak up for change will be responsible for the bad name the Church is now accruing.
- I am not going to be silenced. Our children’s protection is more precious than my membership. I have made the temple covenant of sacrifice. This is not a time to waffle on that promise. If called to do so, I’ll sacrifice my membership for the benefit of the kids.
- Whatever the Church decides to do to me, I forgive them in advance. My Stake President and Bishop are great men, having to operate within the system that they have been dealt.
P.S. Dear Church leaders, If I got anything wrong, please let me know. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a recording to assist in writing this piece.
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For the longest time I have been of the opinion that the Church cares much more about its public image than any one individual (or the membership in general). The perpetuation of the organization is more important than any policy or truth claim or even the members. And I still think that. With that said, I can’t figure out the response to this from HQ. I just don’t see this ending well for them. Its a PR nightmare for an organization that only cares about PR. I give your local leaders a pass. They sound like they are good men. And your word is good enough for me. They are handcuffed by the handbook and the leaders above them, etc.They’re not sufficiently empowered to do anything different than what hey are told or read int he HB. It’s a pity, but also completely predictable.
The Church put windows in all the classroom doors. I couldn’t sub for my wife’s Primary class without a chaperone present (even with the window). There’s the emphasis on two deep leadership and youth protection training with the scouts. Yet they double down on these one on one Bishop worthiness interviews being somehow necessary and good. It boggles the mind.
Don’t be discouraged. You are doing a good thing here. It is a fight worth fighting (IMO). I’m looking forward to participating int he March this spring. This nonsense needs to stop.
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Evil prevails when good men are silent. Sam you are a good man. When I remarked to my husband that : ” Sam Young is so courageous,” his reply was: “No, he is do(ing) what is right …the consequence follows.” I am the Lord thy God thou shalt have no other gods before me. Love thy neighbour as thyself…this is what you are doing in response to the two greatest commandments.
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Oh man. That is so nice of you to say. But, I not alone. 275 brave people have shared their stories. 13,000 people are behind it all. Thanks for your support, my friend.
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With so many fantastic justifications it definitely sounds like you know more than anyone on this subject… definitely don’t humble yourself and know you haven’t done anything wrong at all……satan whispered.
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So anyone who thinks change needs to be made within the church is an apostate? Or is it just because you’ve tried to convince others that changes need to be made?
As much problems as the Catholics have had with priests, I think their confessional system works pretty well. Maybe the church should implement something like that and stop going into sexual detail with kids. Keep up the good fight, Sam!
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Thanks my friend!
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In my experience leading up to my excommunication, it became obvious the orders came from above my SP. He admitted it. I suspect your SP has been given instructions regarding you, as well.
In any case, you have my utmost respect and am here for you when you undergo your disciplinary council. I am an “open book”. Feel free to ask anything you think I might know. If I don’t know, you’ll know! 😉
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This is what’s needed for ‘educated’ pastoral counseling: 1. “Many pastoral counselors have a Bachelor’s degree, a degree from a seminary, and often a Master’s degree or doctorate in psychology or other area of mental health, or in pastoral care and counseling. There is also a doctorate in pastoral community counseling or a Doctor of Theology (ThD) in pastoral counseling.” (https://careersinpsychology.org/pastoral-counseling-careers/). We shouldn’t mock ‘trained’ clergy when the alternative is a plumber by day, counselor-actor by night bishop. 2. IF an individual has an obsession with masturbation, the not-lds treatment is privacy, compassion and help in the form of being referred to a trained sex addiction therapist. The mormon way is neither private nor compassionate and often does not even provide referrals. (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-lies-trauma/201502/childhood-trauma-and-masturbation) 3. How many bishops are guilty of ‘Questionable’ counseling? (https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/warning-signs-of-bad-therapy/). A bishops’ counsel may create horrible results from his unlicensed counseling. In spite of having financial and legal protection from the church, a bishop will still need to live with himself, especially if the results are suicide. If the church ‘wants to protect it’s good name’, it needs to stop the horrible practice of asking children/teens about masturbation and/or other sexually related questions.
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Dear Sam,
On the bright side, your Bishop and Stake President left no room for doubt regarding the core values and priorities of The Only True Church . . . which is now, more than ever, sorely in need of a New Name:
The Church OF The Brethren BY The Brethren and FOR The Brethren
EveryTHING Else and EveryONE Else can pay, pray and obey … or just go to Hell.
We’ll never know how your SP and BP personally feel about Protecting The Children . . . speaking as men. They feel compelled to speak on behalf of their controllers and handlers (aka puppeteers), The Brethren.
As TheMagicRat wrote, “They’re not sufficiently empowered to do anything different than what they are told or read in the HB.”
The “Power” of the Priesthood is a sad joke when it’s clear that The Brethren are holding ALL of the “power” when it comes to dealing with Sam Young and the harm Sam is inflicting on what? On the :good name of the Church”?
Does the behavior pattern exhibited by The Brethren have a name? Has it a name?
Yes, it does.
Will you give it to me?
Yes, I will, through the veil of Sam’s Blog:
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which there is a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others’ feelings. People affected by it often spend a lot of time thinking about achieving power or success, or about their appearance.They often take advantage of the people around them. The behavior typically begins by early adulthood, and occurs across a variety of situations.
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Hmmmm. Maybe you’re saying that I’m half NPD? After all, I do think a lot about achieving success in this cause. But don’t think much about my appearance.
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Geeze, Sam! You’re so self-deprecating that you cherry-picked The Brethren’s mental health disorder laundry list diagnosis to see what, if any of it could apply to you?
No deal on that BS. (I know you’re joking . . . )
But seriously, The Brethren are very sick puppies in dire need of Basic Obedience Training and Fundamentals of Civilized Behavior 101.
They are, so far, resisting your impressive initiative at INTERVENTION and have resorted to name calling.
Sam, you are an APOSTATE!
Am not!
Are too!
Am not!
Are too!
Not a thought even about mentioning THE CHILDREN, let alone exhibiting even a shred of concern for their health and well-being.
Sometimes during my day when I contemplate Sam Young and what you are accomplishing, my heart overflows with awe and gratitude … that you are on this planet, obviously doing what you came here to make happen.
The enthusiastic support coming out of the r/exmo woodwork and other places is showing you that many many active TBMs even are tired of this crap and ready for the Bishop Interviews to STOP.
You are surfing atop a TSUNAMI that will eventually rebaptize The Brethren big time … and wash at least one of their sins away.
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This is poetry!
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Your SP clearly does not know the definition of apostasy, which is “the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.” The LDS can’t just make up a definition to a word. What if I defined the word banana, as a building where people met on Sunday to worship god? Would that make my definition correct? That is essentially what they’ve done with this word, apostasy. You have not renounced your religious beliefs at all. Sadly, these men care more about policies and institutions than they care about children, or God. I can say, as a former bishop myself, that they do have choices. I clearly had opportunities to serve an institution, or to serve God and the people tht were in my ward. When faced with that choice, I asked what would Jesus do, and the answer was always serve the people, and do what is right in the sight of God. Jesus did not have kind words for the established church leadership in his day. Matthew 23 is a perfect description of how Jesus would describe leaders in the LDS church. They love to be called Elder, Bishop, and especially President. They love to sit in the stand in the front of the congregation, they love their status and their “priesthood.” But these men have no priesthood. Even according to their own scriptures, they have lost it. I know you’ve described these men as good, but these men have made bad choices. And a person’s character is defined by the choices they make. They serve a bad master. They do not serve God.
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“The LDS can’t just make up a definition to a word.” Demonstrably false. They do it all the time.
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On multiple occasions I’ve told you, Sam, that my fear for you was that you would be excommunicated before you were ready. That was even before you started the Protect the Children petition. I am sorry if it has come to that, but it is not surprising. If the SP truly believes church leaders are led by God in a very specific, direct, and immediate way (and I am sure he does believe that) then his hands are tied. He has his marching orders from his superiors. Even tho the church tries to pretend that this kind of action is a local matter, history shows that the COB frequently gets involved. And why not, if they are prophets and apostles it’s their job to see to it that the church is run according to their direction. The church is completely and totally closed to any hint of suggestion unless it comes from the top down. Those in power believe it is imperative that every suggestion that does come from the top be accepted as scripture. Unfortunately, based on the history of many before you, that outlook won’t change. However, history also shows that sometimes after good people have been sacrificed to the supposed “good name” of the church, sometimes and slowly, attitudes change and policy follows. I suspect it will be too late to save your membership, which is a shame. But I also believe at some point this church policy will change. And it will be in no small part due to Sam Young taking a lead. It is highly unlikely the church will ever admit that you had any part in the change when it does come. Fortunately 1) I doubt you care for any recognition for your part as long as something changes, and 2) You seem to be at a point where excommunication won’t sting as much as it once would have. That and the fact that you obviously have many who are blessing your name Sam. As do I.
As for “good name”, I have said it, you have said it, and many others have said it. You are not giving the church a bad name. The policy is. Ultimately, you are actually protecting the good name of the church by rooting out evil. Your excommunication, if it comes, will give the church a much worse name than any action you have taken. Ironically, even though protecting the name of the church may be the excuse for cutting you off, the truth is in the end your submission is more important to the leaders than the good name of the church.
They will be willing to sacrifice the good name of the church to enforce obedience, which they undoubtedly see as even more important.
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Wow. Quite an analysis my friend. What an interesting road I’ve traveled….and with you at my side most of the way. Thanks!
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Apostasy isn’t that bad if that’s what they’re calling it. Worth every child. Even one!
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I think I can predict (based on your resolve) that your days are now numbered as a member. Almost without doubt, before the year turns, you will be kicked out. On a personal level, I’m sure you have a good relationship with the SP and BP. However, they reflect a blind indoctrination of a diseased philosophy and are presently incapably of doing anything, other than perpetuate the wishes of those above them. I think you are being more than reasonable in trying to accommodate and respect these wishes – so far as your soul and conscience allows.
When your excommunication comes – despite the protection of your powerful conviction in the course you are following, you may be overwhelmed with a sense of being lost; a sense of abandonment – as if you were a small child and your parents let go of your hand in a very large mall. It will pass quickly, but you will never forget that moment of utter loneliness and parental desertion.
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Sam, regarding your impending excommunication, considering the source, you should embrace The Brethren casting you out of their self-defiled temple as THE HIGHEST COMPLIMENT AND CHARACTER VALIDATION you have ever received in your entire life.
My guess is that, when that day comes, that you will not only welcome their judgmental rejection ritual, but also CELEBRATE!.
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Did you pray about what you were going to say or do before the interview? Or should I say, before you start anything of this? What was the answer the Holy Ghost gave you?
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I pray all the time.
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I’m sure of that. What I’m interested in is the answer you’ve received from the Holy Ghost. What did He tell you when you ask Him if you should start or go on with this initiative (I mean, the PLDSC petition)? I’m highly interested in knowing your answer.
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The spirit has unequivocally and repeatedly told me that I MUST stand up for the children. I feel it every day. I feel it stronger every day. It would be so easy to disregard the answers to my prayers. I’ve lost friends, I spent a ton of money, my livelihood is at risk. Now my membership. To stop what I’m doing would be turning my back to God and His precious children.
Thank you, my friend, for asking.
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You don’t need the Holy Ghost to be a good man and do the right thing for a child. Feeling compelled without excuse is list with bravery and goodness. Obviously the Holy Ghost has not touched this or the brethren would be on Sams side like white on rice.
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This cause is a righteous one, no question about that. Maybe you chose the wrong method. What I think is that the Holy Ghost will never tell you to go openly against the Church, or do anything that could cause some agitation on it (this can cause that “the little ones” among us to stumble, and we don’t want that). Most of the time when I ask the Holy Ghost what to do, He doesn’t give me a complete answer until I give Him all the information. And sometimes I ask and I receive something I dislike until I give more information and gives me something more agreeable or understandable. Sometimes I receive no answer because I don’t need it. Indeed, the communication with the Holy Ghost requires patience and discipline, and prudence. I don’t want to tell you what to do, but I want to suggest you reconsider if you have been cautious and diligent in following the promptings in your mind from the Father. I remember Jeremy Reynolds, a poor man looking for the truth, looking for answers. He preferred losing his place in the Lord’s Church instead that giving up HIS OWN good desires of truth.
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I have another question for you, Sam. Are all the stories you tell in protectldschildren.org verified? I’ve seen there’s a form where I could write my story. Do you verify the identity of the people writing this stories via internet? How do you verify the authenticity of what is told? My concern is due to the fact that the Church has many enemies, people who hate it and who would do anything to damage it. And maybe that people could use the PLDSC cause to do harm. There are people among the exmo community who is really pissed off against the Church and would do anything to damage it.
By the way, is there a pdf version of the stories for download? I want to read them all on my pc.
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It is normal to want to see the church be held accountable for their policies, especially those policies which have clearly allowed innocent chi,drawn to be harmed. This is not about exmormons wanting to harm the church. This is about protecting children. There is literally no other church or organization which would permit such policies to exist. Holding the church accountable is not the same thing is wanting to harm the church.
The church is harming itself with its abominable policies. The church is harming itself in the way it treats good people like Sam Young. The LDS church is not immune from the consequences it should face for its behavior and policies. This despite what leaders like Dallin Oaks have said in the past, where the church does not ask for forgiveness. Leaders like Oaks set a terrible example for the members of the LDS church. People in local leadership positions could easily be influenced to emulate the attitudes espoused by Oaks, and that is bad for the LDS church. It is bad for the local membership.
Jesus sets an example for us, and we have record of his life in the scriptures. The leaders of the LDS church do not follow Christ’s example as it is described in the scriptures. The leaders are blind guides. They are the epitome of what Christ described in Matthew 23.
It seems the people who really want to do harm to the LDS church are the very people who sit in the positions of highest leadership. These people do not set an example of Christ like behavior. They do the exact opposite.
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You got several points there, and I agree with most of them. What I was worried about was about ONE story I read. It looked suspicious. I had read something like that in some exmo forums, the exact same tone. I’m not saying that all stories are fake, not at all. What I’m saying is that maybe some fake stories could have leaked out among the real stories. I’ve read another story and looks pretty legit and real.
The Lord’s Church has many enemies, among those the people who once belong to the fold and now want to destroy it, and I think that they could take advantage of a noble cause like Sam’s to accomplish that goal.
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I’m going to come back and address this. You have a legitimate question. Be back soon.
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If you ever need me to verify who I am and my story I will give you bishops names, cities and wards. He may be referring to me but I’m not certain. I shared this story on my blog a while back
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Ok, Sam.
Tom, I can’t do that, sorry.
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Carlos, I challenge you to conduct your own research. It’s not difficult to find credible people with horror stories about being interviewed/abused by their bishop. Also, please read this “mormonLeaks” document with 316 cases of abuse as reported in the media.(https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/60/INSTANCES_OF_CHILD_SEXUAL_ABUSE_ALLEGEDLY_PERPETRATED_BY_MEMBERS_OF_THE_CHURCH_OF_JESUS_CHRIST_OF_LATTER-DAY_SAINTS-2017-06.pdf)
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Tom, I can’t do that. I’m sorry.
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“Tom, I can’t do that. I’m sorry.”
Sorry, Carlos, but you misspoke. You meant to write:
“Tom, I simply REFUSE to do that. I’m sorry, but The Brethren OWN ME, and they do not want me to go there. I have no choice, having given away control of my OWN BRAIN and my OWN LIFE to protect the good name of the Church and to avoid embarrassing The Brethren … regardless of how many LDS Child Sacrifices are required.”.
Big diff, Carlos, between CAN’T and WON’T.
Grow a pair, my brother. You can do it.
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Gary, I was hoping you would ask why I can’t. Let me tell you: Because I’m already fighting my own fight. That’s why. Now, if you are so interested, you should offer your help to Sam in case he’s going to verify the stories. I’m sure that that’s going to be a lot of work.
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Are you serious? Are you actually concerned people are making up stories to harm the church? Are you also concerned that people have literally (not faked) committed suicide with the sole intent of harming the church? This is just thinly veiled victim blaming/reinforcement of rape culture. Your cynicism and insensitivity is really bizarre. Maybe so many stories of abuse exist because there is a real problem–and not because thousands of people are trying to pull a fast one. You know, a bit of Occam’s razor.
I’m not sure if you are a practicing member of the LDS church, but maybe instead of concerning yourself with verifying stories and the authenticity of peoples’ suffering, you should invest that time and energy in examining the same church perpetuating the suffering. Indeed this church offers no authenticity beyond “because… you know… God”.
If you are really that concerned with verifying stories, you should read up on the formatives of the LDS church… and while doing it, verify your sources. The truth is out there, you can fact check. Why not focus your cynicism on stories that are more far-fetched than unchecked men abusing their power.
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Seriously, SG? Victim blaming? That’s what you’re doing.
You LDS ID-10-T errors need to stop it.
sudo rm -f LDS\ cult
Because that is what your slave masters are actually doing.
Ex-Mormon here and I’ve been damaged by them. Still angry at them. Sued them. I won; but they did two things: Jack and Sh*t.
Your leaders are more suited for an memory care unit at a nursing home than running a corporation or church.
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“What I think is that the Holy Ghost will never tell you to go openly against the Church,”
Carlos, the Achilles Heel all of us human carry around as a giant burden is our natural Confirmation Bias. You have already decided that the HG thinks like you think.
So … done deal for you.
Have a Happy Life there in your CB box.
Been there. Done that. Got out my b.i.c. (boxed in the covenant)
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Hi Carlos, Sorry I haven’t gotten to respond earlier. I have spent a lot of time discussing many of the stories directly with the writers. But I don’t have the time to completely vet every story. I think that at least one of them is fabricated. If it is, it was not fabricated by ‘enemies’ to the church. It was written by a ‘faithful’ member of the church. His intent is to discredit the other stories by planting a false one. Now how unChristlike is that??? Denigrating the sacred stories of the harm that our church has caused in the lives of 300 children. It’s disgusting. I don’t plan to remove the story in question because their is a chance that it’s valid. If so, I don’t want to re-traumatize this person by calling into question their experience.
I want to thank you for your support in calling for changes. I love that my friend.
I see that you have taken some flack from my friends who are now outside the church. You and I have something in common. I have taken a lot of flack from the exmo community. But, I’ve found something magical in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He said to love our enemies. Until my faith transition, I really didn’t have a clue as to how to put that into action. I do now. And I’ve seen it’s fruits. Jesus gave us an incomplete phrase. I now discovered the entire sentence. “Love your enemies, and they will become your friends.”
Gary is a prime example. If you look at the early blogs, you will find many comments from Gary. Harsh words towards me, the church and “The Brethren.” Over the course of a few months, our back and forths started to change. They warmed up. They became cordial. They eventually became filled with love.
I don’t agree with him in all areas. Nor he with me. But, we have found a huge core of commonality. I call it the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. Yeah, Gary dishes it on regarding “The Brethren,” but his goodness and love of goodness towards others is also brilliantly evident in his words. Once we could have been called enemies. Today we have a great respect and love for one another. He’s left the church. I support him in that. I stay in the church. He supports me in a huge way. He is one of the best friends I have ever had.
This has now happened over and over as I’ve loved my exmo friends.
Carlos, thanks for hanging in this thread.
I love you, my brother.
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Thanks for you words, Sam. The Lord said that he would call us his friends if we kept his commandments. One cannot be friend with the enemies of the Lord and call himself the Lord’s friend, because if you are friend of these people is because you share “their commandments”. Exmos like Gary, mean exmos who cannot leave the Church alone, are enemies just because they want to destroy the Church. This doesn’t mean that there is some kind of hatred against them, not at all. That’s not the Lord’s way. If you consider yourself someone who loves them, bring them back to the fold, no further away. They need help to overcome the pain and darkness and come back, because they are lost (they are the lost sheep). Meditate about this, please. Good luck.
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That’s typical cult behavior
The thing about protecting their “good name” is nonsense. They’ve destroyed any goodwill they had with Prop 8 and everything else that came after
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It is a shame that so many in power have a hard time learning that the desire to “protect the good name of ‘the church’ (or Penn State, or USA Gymnastics, or the Catholic Church)” will always ending doing far more harm in the long run. It is far easier to say “you know what, he’s right, we should do something about this” than to try and sweep it under the rug and wait for the even worse consequences down the road. The church is foolish if it thinks this will go away quietly.
Imagine if Penn State had dropped the hammer on Jerry Sandusky in 1998 when the allegations first surfaced, instead of trying to protect the good name of Penn State for another 14 years.
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The good name of the church! What a crazy coverup sound to it. The church should tribe for better
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Nail hit on head.
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It is sad to me that the SP and BP are choosing to follow their leaders over what is so clearly the moral high ground. I don’t know how anybody could read those stories and not cry. It is painful to think that children (and adults) are experiencing those things right now! Sam, you are doing the right thing and there are thousands of people behind you. I will continue to share your messages on facebook and with my family, come what may.
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Please answer Carlos Mercados’ question above as this greatly interests me:
. Are all the stories you tell in protectldschildren.org verified? I’ve seen there’s a form where I could write my story. Do you verify the identity of the people writing this stories via internet? How do you verify the authenticity of what is told? My concern is due to the fact that the Church has many enemies, people who hate it and who would do anything to damage it.
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Sam’s website is an open forum for anyone who wants to post their story. No doubt some TBM zealots will post false stories and later announce their stunt in an attempt to discredit the vast majority of stories that required enormous courage by traumatized interviewees to go public.
Bad language (f-bomb) alert for the following paragraph:
Just fuck any piece-of-shit TBM who posts a false story. And while you’re at it, just fuck The Brethren (who only care about their fucking public image and don’t give a fuck about killing children and ruining the lives of countless other interview survivors).
End of bad language alert.
Sometimes bad language gets an important message across way faster and better than verbal whitewash.
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Sam, you are fighting the good fight. My experience with disciplinary councils is to remember that these are just men and not “judges in Israel” as they like to call themselves. Do not back down and do not leave the council feeling like you have done something wrong by rightfully questioning their authority in terms of the safeguarding of our children.
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Jesus taught, “Judge not … ”
Apparently, The Brethren know better than Jesus and have commissioned over 30,000 judges to judge the hell out members of their Church. In many cases, judge them to nigh unto death.
Good job, Brethren!
You’re so lucky that Jesus will not judge YOU for your ongoing crimes against humanity … all in the name of whom?
In the name of Jesus?
After you DIE and see what you have done, you will JUDGE YOURSELVES and volunteer to undergo whatever reparative therapy learning experiences will be necessary to school your eternal souls to eventually STOP HURTING people because you either don’t care or can’t stop your egregious behavior.
Sam is gifting you, The Brethren, with an opportunity to WAKE UP NOW and STOP NOW.
Your choice.
By the way, there IS a Plan of Eternal Progression. It’s the reason we humans are having this human experience on Planet Earth. Unfortunately, The Brethren are totally in-the-dark clueless about how it all works. Their Three Degrees of Glory + Kolob nonsense is all a steaming pile made up by Joseph Smith.
The actual Plan of Eternal Progression is way-way better and cooler and more exciting than The Restored Gospel . . . in case you might wonder.
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Gary, I’ve read all your comments. You’re a wicked exmo, I know pretty well your kind. You all talk from the same mindset. You don’t care about the truth or anything else, you just want to destroy the Lord’s Church. Sam, sadly any cause, good or bad, where the Church could be harmed in any way, attract this kind of people. They just want to destroy the Church, nothing else.
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Sam, when you publicize the damage being done to children, you are technically opposing the church and its leaders. Just fess up and be proud of it. The “apostate” label is an honor. I’m with you.
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I fear you have been placed in an unfortunate position. LDS leaders have cordoned off you and your message as “apostate.” You will be used as a non-example. The victims will be re-victimized. This will exacerbate the very problem you aimed to salve and intensify the suffocating hopelessness among believing victims. Blame for negative outcomes will be displaced to you. This is the misfortune that has befallen those who try to exact change from within a sick system– they learn they were never really “within.” Be assured, they will not let you stand a martyr like their Abinadi; they will cast you as Korihor to be trodden under foot in the name of God. May you stand resolute against this insidious empire of man.
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Sam, I hope you can make a pdf version of these stories. I know this is by far some of the worst we have as Mormons. And maybe for that reason, I want to have it at hand, because I want to be a good bishop when the day comes.
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Carlos,
If you don’t mind me asking, I am curious how having Sam’s website stories handy will make you a better Bishop … when the time comes?
Have you thought much about how you will broach (or not) the Law of Chastity during youth interviews?
As a future Bishop, your perspective matters, Carlos. Seriously.
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I have a young niece, and I’ve thought about this issues to some extent. I’m really worried about her having the best experience in Church and in life. I know that youths are preciously delicate and they need the best guidance during those years. Doing anything stupid like talking about masturbation with them will make me not a good bishop (I hope my grammar is good here, my English is not the best). I haven’t read all the stories yet, but I’m sure there are plenty of good examples of what NOT TO DO. Also, I’ve read that some people wrote about what a good bishop did or should do. Those thoughts are important. Having a pdf version would make it easier for me to read, the site’s version is pretty uncomfortable (I just get lost), and in case the site is deleted the stories wouldn’t get lost with it (blogs don’t last forever).
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Carlos, you sound like you will be a caring and thoughtful Bishop … when that time comes.
I wish you All the Best that Life has to offer.
Thank you for your contributions to Sam’s blog.
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Great comment. Love you brother!
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Thank you, Gary.
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Gary you have our utmost respect for the manner in which you are supporting Sam. Mormons are notoriously the most judgemental people “on the face of the Earth”. As one leaves, through resignation or excommunication, the so-called ‘church” in fact The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, after dealing with the reasons for doing so, one may feel a certain amount of anger directed chiefly towards onself, but that self- righteous judgemental state of mind eventually evaporates. Do not be discouraged by…
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Hi, Lesley,
Thank you for weighing in with your kind support.
I will confess that I am struggling to understand what you meant by these words . . .
” . . . after dealing with the reasons for doing so, one may feel a certain amount of anger directed chiefly towards onself, but that self- righteous judgemental state of mind eventually evaporates. . . ”
If you could express your thought from a different angle or with additional words, that would help me.
Thank you, Lesley.
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Gary my apologies for being rather cryptic. We resigned neither to destroy the church nor because we did not care about the truth. (Ref. Carlos Mercado’s statement.) On the contrary my husband stated that he had been conned: he was angry for a while then his anger subsided and he moved on.
Our children laid it out:”Mother you have issues. ” Certainly Family History had been a major issue since Helen Radkey had discovered that Jesus Christ had been baptised at least 10 times in various Temples (this included endowments and marriages), while she uncovered work done for Holocaust Victims.I was appalled but my efforts to alert Salt Lake were restricted. Finally someone advised me to filter this through one of my sons; Church Headquarters responded and I received a CC.These baptisms etc had been facilitated through FamilySearch ; still no apology has been forthcoming. I noted from a distance that the Ceo was replaced and other changes were made. Another issue concerned our children, who are now all adults, all seven of those, and those Interviews. I am unable to speak for them but our anguish as parents was considerable. When we resigned a few months ago I was still very angry. However I mellowed and we as it were defiantly drank our first cup of coffee:) It was at that point that my anger turned inward towards myself viz. for having remained in that cult for 55 years: as each child was BIC I realise in retrospect that they had been deprived of making a major decision for themselves. Two of our offspring had already left some years ago.. now we no longer judge them. Instead we are delighted that they did so.The tendency we had to judge others because sub-consciously we regarded ourselves as members of the “true Church” …the fountain of truth, has subsided. We are learning to appreciate others and their decisions.
Sam this is why we are so proud of your efforts. I failed as a mother to help my children precisely because I was a mother in the church…goodness knows I was always trying but to no avail.
Gary I hope this helps…I guess my allusions were not explicit enough, too personal.
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Hi, Lesley,
Thank you for taking time to share more of your story.
Based on reading and hearing many other exmo sagas, anger at the Church certainly makes sense, particularly when the evidence makes it crystal clear that Church leadership knows full well they are running a Mind Control Scam and intentionally exploiting innocent, trusting prey . . . just because they know how to do it . . . and know they can get away with it . . . without being prosecuted and imprisoned for their crime against humanity . . . because of the irrational protection the laws and statutes provide to anything that claims to be a Church.
I will encourage you to avoid being so hard on yourself, and to eventually totally forgive yourself for being human and experiencing a myriad of learning and growing opportunities throughout your life. When we are b.i.c. we are totally defenseless with nothing to call upon but our caretakers we entrust with looking out for our best interest, health and well-being. The Brethren take advantage of innocence to manipulate a feeling of confidence in them. Then they knowingly violate that trust with Mind Control methods to “own” their prey for life while harvesting huge sums of money for which they refuse to be held accountable whatsoever.
My TBM experience has gifted me with the perspective to truly appreciate the freedom of choice that I have enjoyed for over three decades by now. My life is my own now, as opposed to when my life belonged to The Brethren.
Freeing yourself to enjoy a cup of coffee? The further you get away from Church control, the worse it looks, Lesley. That is one reason I am so ruthless when writing about The Brethren. My understanding of the egregious harm they inflict on innocent, decent people who trust them only deepens over time. On the other hand, I must forgive them, which is not so hard when you come to understand that they will be gifted eventually with whatever experiences will help them understand the levels of pain and suffering they have caused for so many.
I wish you all the best, Lesley, and your family as well. You got out! It only gets better from here.
.
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Hi, Lesley. When I wrote about “those who want to destroy the Church” I was thinking in the wicked exmos (wexmos), those who just want to harm the Lord’s Church and are full of hatred and anger against it. I wasn’t talking about those good exmos that can live and let others live. Sorry if you thought I was talking about you or your husband. Not at all.
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Carlos the problem is that you are talking about Gary. We do not know why he left, and therefore we cannot JUDGE him. In fact one should not judge any exmormon.. it is not easy to leave especially when one has family still active. Once one sees the light, one does do an about-turn. Many people continue to attend church with spouses although they no longer have testimonies. Often decisions to leave the church end in divorce. . Many simply leave without tendering a resignation because they no longer acknowlege the authority of the leaders. However when the realization dawns on one that one can leave, it is amazing . “But you will lose your covenants, your husband will no longer have his priesthood.” said the Bishop. Your nonverbal repy is: “So what!!!!” You see the church for what it is.
Gary is supporting Sam Young in his endeavour to protect LDS children including our grandchildren….be gracious enough to allow him to do that unhindered.
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I don’t know why he left, I only know what he is doing right now. Read all his comments and make your own judgment. He changed the tone at some point but before that was awful.
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Hi, Carlos,
“Gary, I’ve read all your comments. You’re a wicked exmo, I know pretty well your kind. You all talk from the same mindset. You don’t care about the truth or anything else, you just want to destroy the Lord’s Church. Sam, sadly any cause, good or bad, where the Church could be harmed in any way, attract this kind of people. They just want to destroy the Church, nothing else.”
Carlos, I appreciate your response. Expressing your perspective enrichens the dialog and makes us all better informed … not only on the issues themselves, but providing insights into the psyches of the various voices contributing to the conversation.
It is an impossibility for a TBM to have much of a clue as to what the LDS Church actually LOOKS LIKE from the outside … through the rear-view mirror. I realize you simply do not believe me about that. That is reality, and that is OK. As a former b.i.c. TBM myself, I have not forgotten what the Church looks like from the inside, from where you are sitting yourself, Carlos … as we speak.
In other words, I have been in your shoes. I had a strong testimony. I “knew” then, as you do now, that The Church is True. Without the shadow of a doubt.
You have also been in my shoes, but only up until 37 years ago when my shoes and I made what I consider to be the healthiest most beneficial and self-loving decision I have ever made in my entire life: To let my shoes step me away and discontinue my membership in the LDS Church and to stop supporting the agenda of The Brethren.
Even though I now see with crystal clarity that Joseph Lied (about virtually everything), I still care deeply about the Mormon Church. It is literally in the DNA inside the cells of my body. Most of my extended family are still active LDS. My elder brother was just called as a Stake Patriarch in Provo. Most of my cousins, nieces and nephews and their kids are active LDS.
All of these blood relatives of mine are at risk to be humiliated and shamed by their Bishops for the crime of touching their own personal bodies in any way that triggers privately experienced sensory pleasure . . . you know, Carlos . . . that sin next to murder . . . failing perfect obedience to The Law of Chastity as interpreted by … the Bishop.
You say I don’t care about truth or anything else. Well, that’s an irrational, emotional response, Carlos. Many TBMs do not resort to your shoot-the-messenger approach, but that is OK with me. I realize what you write is all about Carlos, not about Gary. Same goes for me as well, of course.
You say I want to destroy the Lord’s Church. Couple of problems with that statement, Carlos. If by “Lords” you mean Lord Nelson, Lord Dallin and Lord Henry, then you’re not too far off, will admit.
If you mean Jesus, it ain’t His church whatsover. There was no First Vision, or even Nine Visions. Joseph made that story (those nine stories) up years after he claimed it happened. It was the Church of Joseph Smith, and now it’s the Church of the Brethren.
Jesus does not judge and humiliate children to the point where some of them crucify themselves to escape the shame and self-loathing dished out by a Judge in Israel. Jesus would never complain to Sam that he is destroying the good name of the Church who is killing some of its young members with Biship-inflicted self-loathing..
Really. Carlos. In your wildest imagination, can you picture Jesus complaining to Sam and asking him to STOP?
Suffer the little children to . . . . keep on suffering in silence . . . as long as the Good Name of My Church is not sullied.
Carlos . . . . Carlos . . . Carlos . . . wake up,
Carlos. You are unconscious. Your brain is turned OFF. You are not paying attention.
That is OK, by the way. We all incarnated on this beautiful blue dot to have these experiences we are conversing about right now, as we speak. Part of our responsibility is to help each other feel the pain we cause others with our rough edges. It is our calling to help each other see ourselves more clearly, and then muster the courage to walk through that Refiner’s Fire and burn away the unkindness that harms others.
Sam Young is wielding the Refiner’s Fire Blowtorch in defense of innocent children who are not equipped to take on the Big and Powerful Boys in Salt Lake City. They are not amused. They have ordered Sam to just STOP. If he does not, they will throw Sam out of their temple onto the street. Then they will go back inside their temple and find some more children to shame and humiliate. Some will kill themselves, Carlos.
Sam Young has the heart of a Lion beating strongly and powerfully within his soul. He is PROTECTING THE CHILDREN . . . the very same children The Brethren consider to be nothing more than consumable collateral damage . . . not worth even a passing thought . . . when what they really care about . . . the Good Name of the Church . . . is being sullied by whom?
By The Brethren themselves.
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Your post is in the opposite tone than your earlier posts, but yet is full of the same deception and bad will.
This is the Lord’s Jesus Christ Church. It’s not the Brethren’s Church how you call it.
You have many good points in what you wrote, regarding the children. What I think is that the course of action taken by Sam is not the best course of action. That’s not the way things are done in the Church. Sadly he did what he did and will have to respond to that. I suggest you Sam full repentance when the time comes, possible during a council. Do what they ask you to do and continue the fight from INSIDE the Church and not from OUTSIDE. I think that is the way. That’s my suggestion.
Gary, too bad you’ve fallen. Remember that this Church is all about Jesus Christ, He is all that matters. If we follow His teachings and example we can survive being inside His Church, otherwise, we are cut off.
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So what would continuing “the fight from INSIDE the Church and not from OUTSIDE” even look like? Serious question. From where I am sitting, there just isn’t a way to do that effectively. You get shouted down, or told to be quiet. Stay in line, don’t rock the boat or steady the ark, etc. If you keep going, you get threatened with disciplinary action.The Church is a top down organization like no other. Its about control. There isn’t an established channel for bottom up communication within the organization. Historically they only react (albeit at a glacial pace, if they react at all) to external pressures. Agitation is the only way to get their attention. And it usually comes at a cost.
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That’s a really good question TheMagicRat. I’ll tell you what I think.
As always the Savior settled the example. He had to live next to hypocrisy of the Pharisees and wickedness of the Jews his entire life, yet he wasn’t an agitator, he didn’t fight the fight from the OUTSIDE. When he started his ministry at the age of 30 like the Law established it, the Jews ask themselves, “Is not this Joseph’s son?” (Luke 4:22). He was so silent in his deeds until that moment that they couldn’t believe that he was talking so boldly. And he was silent because he was too busy learning what there was to learn, this is, obedience to the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 22:40). And that a lot to say… After the time of learning, after winning the most important of the fights had passed, came the moment to teach, accordingly to the Law and the Prophets, and like His leaning was so perfect, he had achieved perfection and mastery without comparison. Pharisees couldn’t withstand such magnificence, and they couldn’t withstand the change that paying attention to the words of the Lord implied. That’s why the killed Him, they couldn’t accept the INNER change that was being suggested from the bosom of the Jew people. He was bold in his words, as I said because the ignorance of the Jews and the wickedness of the Pharisees were so big (1 Nephi 16:2) and they were so lost in achieving the stature of Jehovah. He fought from the INSIDE and he won. Why did He win when he died? Because the Jews were the ones who lose after rejecting his Savior and denying the light (John 3:20).
The Savior was a follower, who practiced obedience and faith on a consistent basis. That’s why it was possible for Him to become such a wonderful teacher and healer. He worked from the inside and the Jews couldn’t resist such light. Luckily we are not going to follow the exact same destiny when doing what he did because our circumstances are different and we are not under the Law of Moses.
For us, the story is similar, yet different. The Church needs us to be good disciples and do the things he did, the Body of Christ needs us to do this. Doing this involves following blindly the fold because the Savior is the shepherd, the prophets and the general authorities are just more sheep in the group, and they’re following the best they can.
The suggestion I gave to Sam was in the direction of being the teacher the Church needs, and do the same the Savior did. Those prepared to hear will listen, and the change will follow. Yes, slowly, but as sure as there’s a God. This is the fight from the INSIDE.
I hope this makes any good sense to you.
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Carlos, Sam is fighting the fight inside the church. If the church decides to throw him out, that is their choice, not his.
Christ said by their fruits you can know them. You can know for certain that this is not the Lord’s church, because it does not bear the fruit of a church led by the Lord. Read Mormon 8, starting in verse 33 or so, but pay careful attention to verse 35 Mormons are the ones who read this book. Mormons are the people Moroni was speaking to. He wasn’t speaking to the Protestants, or Catholics, or anyone else. They aren’t reading those words. You are the one reading those words.
This church is about money. Look at the conference center, look at city creek mall, the church literally spent billions of dollars on a mall. Billions.
Moroni was speaking to Mormons. If you can’t see it, you’re being deliberately blind. You are choosing to ignore it. Read 3 Nephi 11. Baptism and repentance are what god requires of you. He sure doesn’t mention anything about temples. In fact, the New Testament has several references to temples, including from Christ himself. The temple is you Carlos. A building is an Old Testament symbol of the real thing. But, Mormons don’t believe their own scriptures.
Of course, why is that surprising? Look at the fruits. Look at how they treat people like Sam.
This is not the Lord’s church. The people don’t believe their own scriptures. They don’t realize that they’ve fallen, like every other people of God. You lie to yourself, and say this church can never fall, but the person who said that was lying. He sure as hell wasnt spesking for god.
A church led by God would not deliberately choose to place children in harms way. A church led by god would not even think to punish Sam for speaking out on such a policy. The fruit speaks for itself, and the fruit is rotten.
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Thanks Carlos. I think Sam IS following the example of the Savior. Specifically, what would you have him do differently that will get the attention of the Brethren? None of us can get an audience with the Q15 short of running into one of them in the grocery store. They are completely shielded from the general membership.
IMO, Jesus most certainly was an agitator. He publicly called out the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and their silly little hedges built up around the law. We often scoff at the Pharisees in Gospel Doctrine class without even realizing how Pharisean the church has become as a institution…but that is another topic for another day. Likewise, Sam and the signers of the petition are calling out the hypocrisy (and danger) of one on one worthiness interviews between an an adult male bishop and children. Two adults are required to count the donations each week (think about that for a second), or to teach a Primary class. Two deep leadership is required in Scouting and youth protection training (for goodness sake…the BSA is miles ahead of the church in this regard…shouldn’t the church be the vangard in this arena?) for scout leaders is required ever other year. A parent should be present if these interviews take place (if they must…which is a whole other topic as wel). Further the inappropriate questing about sexuality needs to be eliminated. Completely.
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MagicRat, Sam IS NOT doing it in the Savior’s way (sadly).
Jesus was indeed an agitator, but not the way most people think. He agitated the Jew Household from the inside after a long and patient preparation and using the tools and the means designated by Himself, the Father and the Jew society, and he did all that in the designated time and period. He didn’t go to the Gentiles or ask the Romans if they agreed with what he was saying about his own people, because it was a domestic agitation, from the INSIDE to the OUTSIDE, from a Jew to the Jews through the exhortation and the example. He didn’t agitate the World, he agitated Israel. You don’t ask strangers with different values than yours about family issues because they won’t lead you in the direction that you want to go. And that happens because they just have a different mindset than you. If you have a Mormon issue, solve it among Mormons in the Mormon way.
On the other hand. Is anything of that bad and wickedness good and righteous? NO. And it must be stopped. But in the Lord’s way. The system was perfect until the darkness crawled into the heart of some men, and for the faults of some few all the Church, all the Body of Christ is contaminated.
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I’m liking you spunk here, Carlos.
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Carlos,
What makes you think Sam hasn’t been patient in the past, and that now is his appointed time and place to take action? Sam has said he’s prayed about this, and I believe him. I believe God has appointed this time for Sam to take action from inside the church.
Sam isn’t coming at this from the outside, he is clearly going about it from the inside.
Also, you never really responded to my point about the current state of the church. Mormon 8 perfectly describes the LDS church today. Moroni is clearly speaking to those people who read and and can hear his words. You should really listen to what Moroni is saying. Bishop and stake presidents are ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ. In other words, they are more concerned about what their leaders tell them to do, than what Christ would do in their situation. Christ would not excommunicate Sam, or even threaten it. Christ would not permit policies in his church that potentially place children in harms way. These people are ashamed to act the way Christ would act.
The churches, or stakes and wards have gone astray because they listen more to SLC, than they listen to the words of Christ. There are a few who do listen, a few have signed Sam’s petition. Those are the few, like Sam who are not lifted up in pride.
Look at City Creek Mall to see examples of how the church loves fine apparel. Look at the conference center for an example of a lavish and extravagant building. The church spent billions of dollars, billions…. on these building projects.
Sam Young is working from inside the church. Your comparisons about Christ are inaccurate. If you want to use Christ as an example, simply ask yourself if Christ would threaten Sam, or if Christ would place children in harm’s way. You and I both know the answer. The obvious conclusion is that the SP and bishop are acting contrary to the way Christ would act. A church who protects policy over children is not a church of Christ.
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I ignored your comment. You were just being highly judgemental there and not asking or inquiring anything. What I think is that God would never tell Sam to do anything that could harm the Church in any way, and that he would ask him to do everything in his power to protect the children. It’s about finding the perfect solution between these situations.
I read the Scriptures you mentioned. I think that there’s a lot of things you don’t understand yet. But that’s just my opinion. I’m really not interested in having any discussion with you. I’m sorry.
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Dear Carlos,
I truly appreciate your mettle to stay in this conversation … aka .. I like your “spunk” as well.
I enjoy agreeing with you at times …
“The system was perfect until the darkness crawled into the heart of some men, and for the faults of some few all the Church, all the Body of Christ is contaminated.”
That is certainly a defensible assertion, Carlos.
I am observing that you’re clearly not comprehending the unfortunate truth contained within your statement.
I communicate my point by asking you a simple question about what you wrote, Carlos.
Who … from your perspective … (I will accept either names or titles) … are these “some few” to whom you refer?
You are a clearly a very intelligent and thoughtful man, Carlos. You have successfully acknowledged the serious problem with the Church that Sam will eventually bring to resolution … one way or another.
What you are still missing, dear Carlos, is acknowledgment of the root cause … the source … of that problem.
Until you identify the source, all off-the-mark attempts at healing the Church will be little more than temporary Band-Aids.
Sam has identified the source.
Carlos, I invite you to consider this post very carefully. Please exercise your obvious intelligence and caring nature to STOP yourself from immediate REACTING with a pushbutton, automatic defense of the Church when you identify an incoming perceived threat.
Sam is NOT a threat to the Church. Regarding PROTECTING LDS CHILDREN .. Sam is the Church’s most valuable asset on Planet Earth. The Brethren should get down on their knees and THANK GOD that Sam Young is illuminating the path forward … to where Jesus himself would lead them.
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“Who… from your perspective … (I will accept either names or titles) … are these “some few” to whom you refer?”
You are one of them, Gary.
But I was refering specifically to those men that one way or another corrupted the children under their guard while being bishops.
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Carlos,
It is actually quite stunning to observe the degree to which your TBM cognition has been struck with total blindness with regard to any capacity to comprehend any possibility that The Brethren and their teachings and policies could possibly have something to do with the Bishops’ interviews that shame children, destroy innocence and ruin lives … as punishment for the crime of growing up like normal humans grow up.
Are you really THAT hopelessly clueless? Or are you just messin’ with me?
=========
Who is ALLOWING Bishops to corrupt children under their guard? (using your language … not how I would describe it).
Who? Carlos. Who? (I sound like an owl 😉
Hint: You can’t lay that on me.
You can fantasize that The Brethren DID NOT KNOW that many of their 30,000 Bishops were harming LDS kids. Sam has very effectively obliterated that stupid argument by showing up on TV news in Salt Lake City to let them know.
Carlos, have you been paying attention? The Brethren (via orders to Sam’s SP and BP) have commanded him to STOP sullying the good name of the Church.
What is it here that you do not understand, Carlos. What is broken with your dot-connector that you are unable to draw lines between what Sam is doing … to his Priesthood Leadership response … and back to Command Central?
To your credit, Carlos, you seem to have sincerely acknowledged that LDS Children are being harmed by Bishops. I’m seriously acknowledging your nontrivial accomplishment as a faithful member and future Bishop. Many TBMs are incapable getting to where you are now. I commend you for that much.
Now I am inviting you to crack open your awareness even further and begin to embrace the possibility that The Brethren might be far, far away from practicing the teachings of Jesus.
Sam figured it out. Sam follows Jesus. Sam’s is personally, already making it STOP.
Sam is filling the LEADERSHIP VACUUM in the Church Office Building. And guess what, Carlos. Some Bishops and Stake Presidents are now following Sam Young and ignoring The Brethren.
You can, too.
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I’ve already explained why I think the course of action followed by Sam is not the best. I haven’t said that the causes and the goal that motivates this cause are bad or wrong, all that I’ve said is that the chosen method is what is mistaken. And I’ve already widely explained why I think is that the case.
On the other hand what I believe is that most Mormons, including you Gay, expect too much from the General Authorities without fully understanding the difficulties of the leadership in the Lord’s Church. Reading the Scriptures you can find plenty of examples of how difficult is the calling to leadership in the Lord’s fold, full of mistakes, opposition, and drawbacks. We are highly technological compared to the Israelites, Jews or Nephite, but in the end, we have the same sinful tendencies to doubting, rebellion and idol worshipping (you idolise the GA, and when they fail you, you turn against them). Certainly General Authorities are remarkable men but in the end, they’re leading the Lord’s Church the best they can like Moses, the Ancient Apostles, and other prophets of old did. The Lord does not give them the solutions and warnings they need on a silver tray. He allows them to make their own full experiences without absolute protection. Why? Anyone can’t grow up while being absolutely isolated from any harm. Also, to some extent, the experience of the GA is also the experience of all those who follow. We are all together in this, we are one. There’s more to say about this, but I don’t want to explain myself any further.
Final words. Sam is not a hero as you say. He’s just a good man making a mistake. The ways of the World are full of protests, democracy, polls and good intentions. That’s good, that’s ok for the World, that’s the best they have. But we have something infinitely better.
From now on I won’t reply any comment. I’ve said more than enough and I think there is nothing more I can add. Good luck, Sam. Bye, Gary, I hope you can come back one day to the Church.
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Carlos I really feel for you…you mentioned that you are fighting your own fight…you are emotional from a personal point of view …perhaps you are clinging on by your fingertips. I held on for such a long time but I am still very emotional with regards my “ISSUES” . Gary thanks for your encouragement. I am so grateful to have had an opportunity to sign SAM’s petition. I have to move on . I have not been able to read all the stories as they are far too distressing. Sam Young will make a difference.
We perhaps all just need to follow those two greatest of all commandments:
I am the Lord thy God …thou shalt have no other gods before me (realising the full implication of this statement …research it) and
Love thy neighbour as thyself. Then it is easy to love and respect Gary. Sam has received promptings from God and one needs to respect Sam’s course of action.God’s blessings to you.
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I appreciate the sincerity I feel in the differing viewpoints above. The parable of the Pharisee and the Publican in Luke chapter 18 helped me see temple interviews in a different light. I think Jesus was pointing out how obsession with righteousness can blind us to what our relationship with God is. In the parable it is as if Jesus is telling us our self perception can become warped when we try to justify ourselves as the pharisee did. Please consider why Jesus said the publican was justified instead of the pharisee. I hope we realize we are beholden to Jesus Christ, rather than the church; we are beholden to the Bridegroom rather than the bride.
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Thanks for your efferts Sam Young. Keep up the good fight.
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If your method opens the Church up for attack from its harshest critics then it does not matter if you think you’re not an apostate. If you’re allied with the “Burn it the f*** down” movement then it doesn’t matter if you think you’re not an apostate. You are an apostate.
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Thank you for your kind and gentle encouragement. I am not opening the church up to anything. My goal is to protect the children that are in harms way. If our interview policies open the church to attack….let’s get rid of them.
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… Sam means get rid of the Policies … not get rid of the Church or its leaders.
If you LISTEN to Sam’s words (and allow him some occasional expression of justifiable anger), he clearly is calling only for the harmful “worthiness” interviews to cease.
As Natasha has so clearly explained to us, it is IMPOSSIBLE for God’s local Judge in Israel to scrutinize a child to determine if they are a WORTHY CHILD or a NOT WORTHY CHILD … without instilling guilt and shame in the child’s vulnerable psyche.
Have you READ any of the stories?
The very fact that the LDS Church labels some its children as UNWORTHY is nothing less than a crime against humanity.
Instead of scrutinizing children, Sam is scrutinizing the Church’s TREATMENT of children, and The Brethren are not amused. They can sure dish it out … no problem. But turn that “harsh critic” spotlight around 180 degrees and shine that light on them?
What happens in the not-distant future will expose the true nature and core values of The Brethren for all the world to see and appreciate.
The ball is in The Court of the Brethren now. By their WORKS, ye shall know them. They are polished, smooth talkers. Make no mistake about that. It’s their BEHAVIOR that’s under the spotlight.
The world is now watching The Brethren. They either need to STOP the interviews from the top, or else hire the best Tap Dancing Teachers on the planet.
Only one of these measures will be successful.
Miracles are possible. Will we see one happen soon?
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I’m stunned at the amount of people out there who would rather continue to risk the safety and well being of children than see a change made to a harmful policy.
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The knee-jerk Anti-Church reaction/response of many (if not most) TBM’s to Sam’s Protect LDS Children initiative is clear and present evidence of wildly successful Mind Control in action.
When one allows it to “sink in” that the LDS Church is, in actual fact, a full-blown Mind Control Cult (fairly characterized as Scientology-Lite), the behavior of many/most TBMs in response to Sam is not only not surprising, but actually anticipated and expected.
Mind Control means literally that someone else has Control of your Mind … aka your thoughts … aka what you think … aka how you react to information you know instinctively, reflexively that your Mind Controllers do not like.
Thank God that not ALL TBMs are fully Mind Controlled … and are able to see and acknowledge that LDS children have been seriously harmed emotionally by worthiness interviews (if not physical sex abuse), and will continue to be violated and damaged if this hideous practice DOES NOT STOP.
The unfortunate reality is that GUILTING and SHAMING and SELF-LOATHING are among the most effective tools and techniques in the Mind Control Toolbox. THIS is the primary reason The Brethren are ignoring Sam and doing NOTHING so far, other than to confirm with the Deseret News whitewash article that worthiness interviews are part of Mormonism and will continue as in the past.
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Fwiw: Please check on your state laws, Sam, for recording. If you live in a one party consent state, then you are the consenting party, and no notice is necessary for anyone else. If you live in a two party consent state, then you need the agreement of the others before recording. Also look into the priest-penitent laws. Most states guarantee that the “penitent” (that’s you) owns the content of closed-door discussion, NOT the church official/denomination. The LDS Church’s insistence on confidentiality is illegal in most states because it robs the church members of their civil rights.
Thank you for standing strong in this. Thank you for being honorable and humble. You have my respect, and if there’s a way I can support you online, please let me know.
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Utah and 37 other states are one party consenting states if the information I googled is correct. The information about priest-penitent laws was less clear, but it seems that in the U.S. the information a penitent gives is privileged, and if a priest or bishop passes it on they could be sued. Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer.
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“A sane person to an insane society must appear insane.” -Kurt Vonnegut
If they kick Sam out, then it is a high honor to be kicked off the crazy bus. It helps to show their true colors. I hope the church will change. They have never changed without pressure from outside. Sam’s campaign is righteous.
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When the Church puts itself in front of the Child–that is what apostasy looks like.
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